Posted on 07/25/2015 7:45:32 AM PDT by Gamecock
Disapproval of polemics¹ in the Christian Church is a very serious matter. But that is the attitude of the age in which we live. The prevailing idea today in many circles is not to bother about these things. As long as we are all Christians, anyhow, somehow, all is well. Do not let us argue about doctrine, let us all be Christians together and talk about the love of God. That is really the whole basis of ecumenicity. Unfortunately, that same attitude is creeping into evangelical circles also and many say that we must not be too precise about these things…. If you hold that view you are criticizing the Apostle Paul, you are saying that he was wrong, and at the same time you are criticizing the Scriptures. The Scriptures argue and debate and dispute; they are full of polemics. . .
. . .Let us be clear about what we mean. This is not argument for the sake of argument; this is not a manifestation of an argumentative spirit; this is not just indulging one’s prejudices. The Scriptures do not approve of that, and furthermore the Scriptures are very concerned about the spirit in which one engages in discussion. No man should like argument for the sake of argument. We should always regret the necessity; but though we regret and bemoan it, when we feel that a vital matter is at stake we must engage in argument. We must “earnestly contend for the truth,” and we are called upon to do that by the New Testament.
Cited in MacArthur, John. The Truth War: Fighting for Certainty in an Age of Deception. Nashville, Tenn.: Nelson Books, 2007. pp. 193-194.
¹Polemics — The practice of theological controversy to refute errors of doctrine.
“But we are dealing with sinful people with autonomous minds. THAT cannot be avoided.”
Thank God you (we) are sinless and have a mind completely given over to God without a smidgen of autonomy.
Absolutely true. I can't tell you how many times I've heard at church that we shouldn't argue about doctrine. Everyone has their own view. Sometimes I could scream.
Scripture tells us we are to grow up in a spirit of truth. We are on a journey to seek this truth like the pearl of great price. There is only one truth of what God is like and how He interacts with His people. We should strive to seek and understand Him. And the only way to do this is through His word and seeking the understanding of other brothers and sisters.
Iron sharpen iron.
Welcome a man whose faith is weak, but not with the idea of arguing over his scruples. One man believes that he may eat anything, another man, without this strong conviction, is a vegetarian. The meat-eater should not despise the vegetarian, nor should the vegetarian condemn the meat-eater—they should reflect that God has accepted them both.
After all, who are you to criticise the servant of somebody else, especially when that somebody else is God? It is to his own master that he gives, or fails to give, satisfactory service. And don’t doubt that satisfaction, for God is well able to transform men into servants who are satisfactory.
Again, one man thinks some days of more importance than others. Another man considers them all alike. Let every one be definite in his own convictions. If a man specially observes one particular day, he does so “to God”. The man who eats, eats “to God”, for he thanks God for the food. The man who fasts also does it “to God”, for he thanks God for the benefits of fasting. The truth is that we neither live nor die as self-contained units. At every turn life links us to God, and when we die we come face to face with him. In life or death we are in the hands of God. Christ lived and died that he might be the Lord in both life and death.
Why, then, criticise your brother’s actions, why try to make him look small? We shall all be judged one day, not by each other’s standards or even our own, but by the standard of Christ. It is written: ‘As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God’. It is to God alone that we have to answer for our actions.
Let us therefore stop turning critical eyes on one another. If we must be critical, let us be critical of our own conduct and see that we do nothing to make a brother stumble or fall.
I am convinced, and I say this as in the presence of Christ himself, that nothing is intrinsically unholy. But none the less it is unholy to the man who thinks it is. If your habit of unrestricted diet seriously upsets your brother, you are no longer living in love towards him. And surely you wouldn’t let food mean ruin to a man for whom Christ died. You mustn’t let something that is all right for you look like an evil practice to somebody else.
After all, the kingdom of Heaven is not a matter of whether you get what you like to eat and drink, but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. If you put these things first in serving Christ you will please God and are not likely to offend men. So let us concentrate on the things which make for harmony, and on the growth of one another’s character. Surely we shouldn’t wish to undo God’s work for the sake of a plate of meat!
I freely admit that all food is, in itself. harmless, but it can be harmful to the man who eats it with a guilty conscience. We should be willing to be both vegetarians and teetotallers if by doing otherwise we should impede a brother’s progress in faith. Your personal convictions are a matter of faith between yourself and God, and you are happy if you have no qualms about what you allow yourself to eat. Yet if a man eats meat with an uneasy conscience about it, you may be sure he is wrong to do so. For his action does not spring from his faith, and when we act apart from our faith we sin.
We who have strong faith ought to shoulder the burden of the doubts and qualms of others and not just to go our own sweet way. Our actions should mean the good of others—should help them to build up their characters. For even Christ did not choose his own pleasure, but as it is written: “The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.”
It is one thing to delve deeper into scripture. But I’ve had people tell me I’m going to hell for not accepting Calvin’s 5 points. I don’t think God agrees with that assessment.
I don’t think systematic theology gets much support from scripture. It seems more like human philosophy pretending to be a desire for God.
Like most Baptists, I reject infant baptism. I suspect others on this thread support it. But regardless of the age at which it is done, water baptism gives spiritual life to no one. I would be glad to explain to someone why I reject infant baptism, but I need to be very careful in how I go about it. God is a lot bigger than I am, and I have no business trying to shackle Him.
I understand your point but all the experience with open RF threads proves that people (on both sides, me included) get "disagreeable.
I see two purposes for this caucus discussion. First, we are not being disagreeable. We are cooperating in a dialogue and discussing the subject ("Is it okay to disagree?") In all those other threads the subject was hardly EVER a part of the conversation. Honestly, many times I never even read the original post. I'd get wrapped up in "this" and "that" (you can fill in the blanks.)
Second, the topic of this thread (as I see it) is directly related to all of the events of the past week's events on this forum. I'm happy to see a conversation about disagreement rather than disagreement alone.
I haven't looked yet to see if anyone else responded to your post to me. I look forward to seeing other opinions.
oops.
...of all the events on the RF during the past week.
When you quote scripture please include chapter and verse.
Romans chapter 14. Part of 15, too.
I'll modify my replies to include the original as well as my observations.
I hear that some are discouraged from actually doing this.
They may be confused by their lack of years of study of the scriptures, and come up with the wrong conclusion of what it really means.
Better to have experts explain it to them.
I am one of the men inspecting the elephant; telling the OTHERS that they must be seeing it wrong.
My tolerance level is WAY low for those who don't see things MY way!
Romans 7:21-24
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
There is a difference between a man “weak in his faith” and a man who should “leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity”.
I believe that we, as Christians, should focus on what unites us, especially that our salvation comes ONLY from and through Jesus. It is our acceptance of Him and His message that give us His gift. We can argue over doctrine and dogma, but should not permit our differences in them, some of which have been created by men.
When it comes to doctrine and dogma and differences, I am reminded of John and Jesus’s talk in Mark 9 38-41:
“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.”
Thus these words of Jesus on intolerance toward those who speak His message, is not to His liking.
Can we, today, as this generation’s disciples of Jesus, do otherwise?
Well maybe .. but it depends on who the “experts” really are. The beliefs of the “expert” doing the teaching is critical to the person understanding what they’re being taught.
As we can see today .. some leaders in the churches are leading their people astray. Some will realize they’re being lied to and leave. It will all depend on their personal relationship with Jesus.
Discernment: This is a key word in reading the Bible and really understanding what it’s saying.
I was privileged to attend a Bible School where the main teacher understood the depth of information within the Bible and how to apply it to your life - today.
Proverbs 15:1-4, 31-32
A gentle answer turns away wrath,
But a harsh word stirs up anger.The tongue of the wise makes knowledge acceptable,
But the mouth of fools spouts folly.The eyes of the LORD are in every place,
Watching the evil and the good.A soothing tongue is a tree of life,
But perversion in it crushes the spirit....
He who neglects discipline despises himself,
But he who listens to reproof acquires understanding.The fear of the LORD is the instruction for wisdom,
And before honor comes humility.
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