Posted on 07/01/2015 7:13:05 AM PDT by RnMomof7
Recently there has been a surge in prominent Evangelicals calling for unity with Roman Catholicism. In one sense there seems to be strong foundational similarities that would justify these calls to unity. Catholics are baptized in the name of the Trinity. God’s revealed word in the Bible -- setting aside their addition of the Apocryphal books, for argument’s sake -- is foundational to their worldview. Catholics love Christ and believe that he died on the cross and rose again to provide grace for sinners.
Obviously there are theological differences associated with the specific teachings of each one of these perceived similarities, and I do not want to minimize the importance of these differences. But for argument‘s sake, at least on the surface, there is some common ground.
There is also a strong agreement in ethical standards. Both Roman Catholics and Evangelicals ground morality on God’s holy nature as revealed in the law of God. This means that on the hot button moral issues of the day; the murder of the unborn, human sexuality, the sanctity of marriage there is solidarity between Roman Catholic and Evangelical ethics because they are coming from the same source. Again, this seems to justify a call to some sense of unity.
Are these good enough reasons to publically stump for visible unity with Roman Catholics? That question is beyond the scope of this post. But there is a more fundamental question that must be answered first. That question serves as the dividing line between followers of Christ and the world, which separates biblical Christianity from every other worldview; does Rome possess and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
The author of the book of Hebrews in chapter 10 contrasts the gospel with that which is but a shadow of the gospel. He argues:
"And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." -- Heb 10:11–14
The argument being presented here makes it clear that Christ’s singular sacrifice, his death on the cross, perfects those for whom it is made for. This is the gospel. It is contrasted with the shadow of the gospel in which sacrifices were repeatedly made year after year because though they symbolized the atoning and perfecting sacrifice of Christ, they never themselves perfected those for whom they were made. The gospel of Jesus Christ perfects and any other religious strategies cannot.
This principle is directly applicable to the question of Roman Catholicism and the gospel of God. Roman Catholic worship centers on the mass. The mass is a series of liturgical practices that culminates in the Eucharist which according to paragraph 1068 of the Catholic of the Catholic Church (hereafter CCC) is a divine sacrifice. Paragraph 1367 of CCC calls the Eucharist a “truly propitiatory” sacrifice. This sacrifice is performed repeatedly in the life of a Catholic.
The reason the Eucharist is performed repeatedly is because even though it is claimed to be a propitiatory sacrifice that can make reparation for sins (CCC, 1414), it is a sacrifice that never perfects anyone. According to the Catholic message grace is something that you get from God by performing certain acts. First, God gives you the grace for faith in Jesus (CCC, 2000). Second, when you are baptized God graciously erases the sin of Adam from your record (CCC 1257). From that point on you get more grace by doing things like participating in the sacraments, including the Eucharist. The problem is that when you commit sins, you lose some of the grace you have gained and now need more lest your grace be found wanting at final judgment. This forces the Catholic into a position where they need to return day after day, week after week, and year after year to a priest who serves to repeatedly re-present the same sacrifice which never perfects those for whom it is made, since it only offers grace to cover some sin.
This is not the gospel.
Roman Catholics need the gospel for the same reason we all need it. We are all sinners with such a messed up and low view of how holy holiness really is that we think somehow through our own efforts we can attain it. If we just had enough time and willpower we could somehow have our good deeds outweigh our bad, and this will please God just enough for me to be acceptable to him. This is a satanic lie. A satanic lie that to some degree or another we have all bought into at some point in our life.
But the truth is glorious. God is good and God is holy. He is more good and more holy than we can possibly imagine. God is so good and so holy that anything less than absolute perfection is unacceptable in his presence. It is because of God’s awesome goodness and awesome holiness that in his wisdom he has offered us grace, through faith in Christ. A good and holy sacrifice that absolutely without question completely perfects everyone for whom it is made.
I have started paying attention to what people say/write. When some are asked about religion, they say Catholic. Others say Christian with no other identity. Some say “born again Christian.” Is being Catholic more important than being a Christian? I have not heard a Protestant denomination mentioned. Very interesting.
You are correct.
Yes.
It is not hate speech. I find these threads very informative. It is a shame that y’all don’t.
Mark, I was asked to be a Facebook friend from someone I had never heard of. I checked his profile and discovered he was a Christian from Nigeria. I read his comments on several pages before accepting his request. The posts I read were all from the Bible. Christians are all over the world.
Let’s not forget the whole gun issue.
And those very questions make salvation conditional on works.
People are lost until they become saved. So there will be murderers and adulterers and if they don't trust in Christ and receive Him, they are going to hell.
However, once they become a Christian, a follower of Christ, born again, even if they commit those sins, and even if for some reason, they don't feel sorry for them, they are still saved.
What Catholics like to set up to try to justify works based salvation, is actually a non-existent situation.
A Christian is not going to go out and willfully, unrepentantly sin with impunity. A person with the Spirit of the living God living in them CAN'T sin callously.
Do we sin? Certainly.
Do we sometimes sin deliberately? Absolutely.
Do we sin comfortably without the conviction of the Holy Spirit making us miserable in it. No.
See, what the problem is, is the person who does not have the Holy Spirit living in them is totally incapable of understanding the change in attitude that the saved person has towards sin and the work of the Holy Spirit in that person's life when they do sin. You cannot have the Holy Spirit living in you and not know it and not have the changed life to show it.
Nobody who belongs to God sins without consequence. It's only without loss of salvation, but God will not let His own continue in sin. And coming under the conviction and chastisement of the Holy Spirit is no picnic.
We are not perfect and God knows that and He knows that we never will be until we reach heaven, so He has provided the means for dealing with sin here on earth without it costing us our salvation.
Our salvation is secure in Christ because we didn't pay for it so we can't lose it. It's a GIFT to us, and it's ours whether we appreciate it or not, but God is not an Indian giver and does not take it back if we think He deems us unworthy of it.
People set up conditions for attaining salvation and keeping it that God never did. It makes people feel good and feel in control to have some say in their own salvation. Trusting completely and fully in God's mercy and grace sounds easy and sounds like it should be easy, but we humans don't like turning over absolute control to anyone, even God.
Anyone who thinks they must do something to keep their salvation, whether it's a positive of doing something, or the negative of not doing something, in effect does NOT trust God and take Him as His word. Otherwise, they would not be trying to do something to *help* Him. People basically are even afraid to trust God completely.
**Is the unrepentant adulterer who has faith saved?**
False categories.
You can be an unrepentant adulterer
OR
You can be a repentant adulterer with faith.
The latter is saved.
It is the broken and contrite spirit that Jesus will in no wise cast out. Your phrasing initially was tricky and I missed the trick. You place 'has faith' alongside unrepentant, where it does not belong. But I see it now. You wrote/questioned:
If someone has faith yet is still attached to sin, is he saved? Is the unrepentant adulterer who has faith saved? Is the unrepentant murderer who has faith saved?
To come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ you must recognize you are a hopeless sinner and that your only hope is in Jesus Christ. Without getting bogged down in picking at nits, the broken and contrite spirit is a work of The Lord. No man comes to the Father but by Jesus. God draws to Jesus those whom God chooses. God breaks the sinner making them broken and contrite.
Contrition of the sinner is the 'thing' God produces so that the soul of the sinner turns to Jesus for Salvation. The work that God does to bring one to the contrition state will harden the soul that rejects their need for Jesus Christ, and too many believe they can be good enough for God's measure without allowing God to bring them to the point of contrition. That is the picture of the unrepentant soul, the one who will not let God bring them tot he point of contrition.
The unrepentant soul is displayed clearly in one Simon Magus. The Bible says that magician believed and was also baptized. But he was unrepentant, he was tasting of the new way but not allowing God's Spirit to bring him to the state of contrition. You can do a Bible search on Simon and see how God dealt with his belief but unrepentant heart. However, even Simon was brought to repentence, showing how Merciful God is. So, to answer the question I misread to start with, my answer is/God's answer is, the unrepentant soul is not yet ready to be delivered from their sin, their sin nature.
This is a very crucial issue you've raised and I'm glad/I thank you that you continued on in this issue since it really is vital to understand The Gospel of God's Grace in Christ. No lifetime of works is going to change an unrepentant heart, because ONLY God brings the sinner to the point of repenting and believing in Jesus as The Christ, The Son of the Living God. It is God's Holy Spirit Who brings the heart to the state of contrition that meets repentence. Now, what is the result of the broken and contrite spirit when it comes to Christ? Let's see what else you wanted to focus upon:
The one lacks the love to forgive others is also save.
I will presume you meant 'also saved'. When a broken and contrite spirit is born from above, they are not yet in a state of perfection, able to love the way God loves. They are to be raised up in the Way that they should go by the present in them Holy Spirit. Try not to conflate the unrepentant with the born from above one not yet able to love with agape. It leads to false conclusions ...
How do you reconcile this with what Jesus said: "If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions." [The Bema Seat of Christ IN HEAVEN will feature some very interesting effects of the Shekinah Glory of God shined upon the life of the Saved, Raptured, family members.] Or with his declaration that if we are to enter into eternal life we must keep the commandments.
Now let's look at a false conclusion you reached by my clumsy misreading of your initial questions and the application of the false trail you want me to follow:
You need to stop trying to force that round peg of sola fide into the square whole of Scripture. Sola fide is a manmade tradition that is contrary to Scripture."
Pegs and 'whole' aside, the Bible very clearly and repeatedly tells you that it is by God's Grace that your are Saved through Faith in Jesus Christ as The Deliverer and Lord. This is accomplished in you ONLY by His Spirit first bringing you to contrition and repentance, then placing your faith solely in His Promise to be your redeemer, your Savior, your Lord of Life. When you do that He keeps His Promise to cleanse you from all unrighteousness and place His Spirit in you, right then, not after all that you can do to be worthy of His Grace.
Catholicism teaches a different means to be 'born from above', a means which looks more like an installment plan birth which requires your works to be completed. That is anathema to what The Word of God declares.
This seems to be; shall we say; a bit judgmental.
Well said! Those without the Holy Spirit will soon be here telling us how we believe that a believer can wilfully do anything and still be saved.
Says someone whose chosen religion has a HISTORY of torturing those that disagree with it.
Then you'd better post the TRUTH; or else our lurkers here will not be able to discern.
The catechism states that the Priest reaches into heaven and brings Christ down to be in the wafer ( body, blood, soul and divinity!) then placed upon the catholic altar to be victim for the ones present at the Mass. Aside from my astonishment at the blasphemous nature of such a claim, whose power and authority would YOU claim does that heresy?
Another great one! Keep up the good work.
Simply put but speaks volumes of truth Gamecock.
So is Jesus still being born? Is He still dying on the cross?
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