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Why Is the Road to Destruction Wide and the Road to Salvation Narrow? A Meditation
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 06-24-15 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 06/25/2015 6:53:00 AM PDT by Salvation

Why Is the Road to Destruction Wide and the Road to Salvation Narrow? A Meditation on a Teaching by Jesus

Msgr. Charles Pope • June 24, 2015 •

In the gospel earlier this week, we read a warning from Jesus that too many people just brush aside: Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few (Matt 6:12-13).

I have commented on this blog at some length in the past on the serious problem of universalism (the notion that nearly everyone goes to Heaven). I will not create another whole post on that just now, but you can read one of those older posts here: Hell is for real and not rare.

But just to summarize, most people today have the teaching exactly backwards. Whereas Jesus says “many” are on the road to destruction and only “a few” travel the narrow road (of the cross) to salvation, most reverse what Jesus says and claim that many go to Heaven and only a few (if any) go to Hell. Don’t do that. Jesus is not playing games with us. No one loves us more than Jesus does, and no one warned us more of judgment and Hell than Jesus. And even though He doesn’t give percentages for each category, do not refute His words by trying to make “many” mean “few” and “few” mean “many.”

The question does surely arise as to why many walk the wide road to destruction and Hell. Is it because God is stingy or despotic? No. God surely wants to save us all (Ez 18:23; 1 Tim 2:4). The real answer is that we are hard to save and we must become more sober about that. We have hard hearts, thick skulls, and innumerable other traits that make us a difficult case.

If even a third of the angels fell, that ought to make us very aware of our own tendency to fall. This should make us more humble about our own situation. The fallen angels had intellects vastly superior to ours and their angelic souls were not weighed down with the many bodily passions that beset us. But still, they fell! Adam and Eve, possessing preternatural gifts and existing before all the weaknesses we inherited from sin, also fell. Are you and I, in our present unseemly state and vastly less gifted than the angels, really going to claim that we are not in any real danger or are easy to save?

We need to sober up and run to God with greater humility, admitting that we are a hard case and in desperate need of the medicines and graces that God offers. He offers us His Word, the Sacraments, holy fellowship, and lots of prayer! We need not be in a panic, but we do need to be far more urgent than most moderns are about themselves and the people whom they say they love.

Consider some of the following ways we can be a hard case in terms of being saved (Disclaimer, I do not say all these things are true of you personally, just that we, collectively, have these common tendencies):

1. We have hard hearts and stubborn wills – While some of what this includes is specified more below, here is a good place to begin. God, speaking to us through Isaiah the Prophet, says, I know that you are obstinate, and your neck is an iron sinew and your forehead is bronze (Is 48:4). He is talking about us!

2. We are obstinate – If something is forbidden we seem to want it all the more. St Paul laconically observes, When the commandment came, sin sprang to life (Rom 7:9). If something is harmful we want it in abundance, but if it is helpful we are often averse to it. We like our sweets and our salty snacks, but vegetables rot in the refrigerator. In the desert the people of Israel longed for melons, leeks, onions, and the fleshpots they enjoyed in Egypt. Never mind that they were slaves then. But when it came to the Bread from Heaven, the Holy Manna, they said, We are disgusted with this wretched manna (Num 21:5). We are obstinate, turned outward toward sin instead of inward toward God in a Holy embrace. Jesus sadly remarked that judgment would go poorly for many because The light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed (Jn 3:19).

3. We don’t like to be told what to do – Even if we know we ought to do something, or to stop doing something, the mere fact that someone is telling us often makes us either dig in our heels and refuse, or else comply, but resentfully rather than whole-heartedly.

4. We are not docile – When we were very young we were fascinated with the world around us and kept asking “Why, Mommy?” or “Why, Daddy?” But as we got older our skull thickened; we stopped asking why. We figured we knew better than anyone around us. The problem just worsens with age, unless grace intervenes. St Paul lamented, For the time will come when people will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths (2 Tim 4:3-5).

5. We love distraction and don’t listen – Even when saving knowledge is offered to us, we are too often tuned out, distracted, and resistant. ADHD is nothing new in the human family. God says through Jeremiah, To whom shall I speak and give warning, that they may hear? Behold, their ears are uncircumcised, they cannot listen; behold, the word of the LORD is to them an object of scorn; they take no pleasure in it (Jeremiah 6:10). Jesus invokes Isaiah to explain why He speaks to the crowds only in parables: For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed (Is 6:10).

6. We are opinionated – We tend to think that something is true or right merely because we think it or agree with it. Having opinions, even strong ones, about what is right and true is not wrong per se. But if God’s Word or the Church’s formal teaching challenges your opinion, you’d better consider changing it, or at least making distinctions. The last time I checked, God is just a little smarter than you are. His official teaching in the Scripture and the Doctrine of the Church is inspired and you are not. Scripture says, All we, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way (Is 55:8). Or again, Can the pot say to the potter, “You know nothing”? (Is 29:16) Or yet again, Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, “What are you making?” (Is 45:9) But still many go on with their own opinions and will not abide even the clear correction of God.

7. We have darkened intellects due to unruly and dominating passions – Our strong and unruly passions cloud our mind and seek to compel our will. Too easily, without training and practice in virtue, our baser faculties come to dominate our higher faculties, making unreasonable demands for satisfaction. And thus we love to tell ourselves lots of lies. We suppress the truth and our senseless minds become darkened ( Romans 1:21). The catechism says, The human mind … is hampered in the attaining of … truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful. (Catechism #37). And the Second Vatican Council, in Lumen Gentium 16, says, But very often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasoning and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.

8. We are lemmings – We are too easily swayed by what is popular. We prefer ephemeral notions to ancient and tested wisdom. Tattoos, tongue bolts, and piercings are in? Quick, run out and get one! Whatever the fad or fashion, no matter how foolish, harmful, or immodest, many clamor for it. Let a Hollywood star get a divorce and soon enough everyone is casting aside true biblical teaching against it. The same goes for many other moral issues. What was once thought disgraceful and the stuff of back allies is now paraded on Main Street and celebrated. And like lemmings, we run to celebrate what was once called sin (and is still sinful from any biblical stance). Instead of following God we follow human beings. We follow them and the “culture” they create, often mindlessly. Yes, lemmings is the right image.

9. We live in a fallen world, governed by a fallen angel, and we have fallen natures. Many seem to abide all of this quite well and make quite a nice little home here.

10. If all this isn’t enough to show that we are a hard case, consider a “few” others. We are so easily, in a moment, obnoxious, dishonest, egotistical, undisciplined, weak, impure, arrogant, self-centered, pompous, insincere, unchaste, grasping, harsh, impatient, shallow, inconsistent, unfaithful, immoral, ungrateful, disobedient, selfish, lukewarm, slothful, unloving, uncommitted, untrusting, indifferent, hateful, lazy, cowardly, angry, greedy, jealous, vengeful, prideful, envious, contemptuous, stingy, petty, spiteful, indulgent, careless, neglectful, prejudiced, and just plain mean.

So if the road to destruction is wide (and Jesus says it is) don’t blame God. The road is wide for reasons like this. We are a hard case. We are hard to save. It is not that God lacks power, it is that we refuse to address much of this. God, who made us free, will not force us to change.

We ought not kid ourselves into thinking that we can go on living resistant to and opposed to the Kingdom of God and its values, but that then magically at death we will suddenly want to enter His Kingdom, which we have resisted our whole life. Jesus said that many prefer the darkness. Is it really likely that their preference will suddenly shift? Will not the glorious light of Heaven seem harsh, blinding, and even repulsive to them? In such a case is not God’s “Depart from me” both a just and merciful response?  Why force a person who hates the light to live in it? I suppose it grieves God to have to abide such a departure, but to force a person to endure Him must be even more difficult to abide. I am sure it is with great sadness that God accepts a person’s final “No.” Yes, the road is wide that leads to destruction. It is wide because of us. The narrow road is the way of the cross, which is a stumbling block and an absurdity to many (1 Cor 1:23), who simply will not abide its message. So, we ought to be sober about the Lord’s lament. We ought also to be more urgent in our attempts to secure our own unruly soul and the souls of those we love for the Kingdom. The blasé attitude of most moderns is rooted in the extremely flawed notion that judgment and Hell are not real issues. That is a lie, for it contracts Jesus’ clear word. Why is the road to destruction wide? Because we are hard cases; we are hard to save. We ought not be unduly fearful, but we ought to run to Jesus in humility and beg Him to save us from our worst enemy—our very self. If you don’t think you’re a hard case, read the list above and think again.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic
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To: LearsFool

If it were possible for you or any other human to enter by striving, what would Jesus on the Cross be for? The Mormons say it is so God can reward you after all that you can do to be worthy of Grace. But Paul says it is no more Grace if you strive to obtain it.


81 posted on 06/26/2015 9:27:01 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: LearsFool

>>So you would advise a person not strive to enter in until after he’s already in? He strives to get in out of gratitude for getting in? That sounds different from the Lord’s advice.

That’s why I’m having this discussion. The bible appears to contradict itself if you take each verse as a separate statement.

>>No, the faith that gets a person IN Christ’s kingdom is living faith, not dead faith. Those who heard the gospel preached on Pentecost understood this, and strove to get in. Peter told them how, and 3000 people obeyed and “were added to the church”.

Exactly. The only thing they did was to obey was to have faith and accept Jesus. They didn’t build a church or feed a specific number of homeless people or memorize a certain number of verses. The just had faith alone.

>>Just like the Israelites at Jericho: They didn’t wait until after the walls fell and then march. Just like Naaman the leper: He didn’t wait until after he was healed and then dip in the Jordan. Just like Noah: He didn’t wait until after he was saved from the flood and then build the ark.

In each of those cases, the work was not done until they did it. In the case of salvation, the work was done by Jesus before we were born.


82 posted on 06/27/2015 4:48:42 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: metmom
Yet ANOTHER thread turned into a Catholic We are Number one (only, really) True church.

Jump thru OUR hoops and be SAVED!




Maybe...

83 posted on 06/27/2015 5:24:02 AM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Bryanw92
That’s why I’m having this discussion. The bible appears to contradict itself if you take each verse as a separate statement.

I enjoy discussing the Bible with someone who takes the same interest in understanding it as I do. :-)

Sometimes what looked to me like a contradiction in the Bible was actually only a conflict between my beliefs and what the Bible says. That's the same problem Jesus confronted with the Jews: They had their own expectations and preconceptions of the Messiah, but He didn't fit those expectations. (It took a long time to purge those mistaken notions out of even the apostles' minds.)

We, too, often have preconceived ideas - whether it's ideas we grew up with, or what our parents believe, or what we hear preached every Sunday, or what our favorite tv/radio preacher says. Few people are able to set aside their preconceived ideas and follow only what the Word says. Sometimes we react like the Jews who were disappointed with this "crucified Messiah", and reject the truth when it's shown to us.

The only thing they did was to obey was to have faith and accept Jesus.

Remember Jesus' description of how disciples are made, in Matt. 28:19-20?

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you"

Now let's see these instructions put into practice:

"Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved."
- Acts 2:41-47

So first we find that people obeyed the Lord's command to be baptized - which is one part of how disciples are made. Then they heeded the teaching of Christ's apostles and observed those things He commanded through them - the other part of discipleship.

Did they have to do these things in order to be saved? Could they become disciples without doing them? Would the Lord add them to His church, would they be saved, without doing what Acts 2 says they did?
84 posted on 06/27/2015 6:06:31 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: MHGinTN
If it were possible for you or any other human to enter by striving, what would Jesus on the Cross be for?

It's His kingdom, and He is the King, so He sets the terms of entrance, He decides the requirements. If He says we have to strive to enter in, we better just do what He says and quit trying to figure out whether it's really really necessary.

Some people's idea of the kingdom is: Well, Jesus got the door open for us, so now we can just wander in as we please. But Jesus says different:

"When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are; then shall ye begin to say, We did eat and drink in thy presence, and thou didst teach in our streets; and he shall say, I tell you, I know not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without."

These "workers of iniquity" are those who wouldn't obey His command to "strive to enter in". Yes, He got the door open, but He ain't lettin' them in.
85 posted on 06/27/2015 6:22:11 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: LearsFool

>>Did they have to do these things in order to be saved? Could they become disciples without doing them? Would the Lord add them to His church, would they be saved, without doing what Acts 2 says they did?

They believed and they joined and they became disiples. As a fruit of this, they did the things you listed.

The modern church is no different. A person has an epiphany and gives his life to Christ. Some of them pitch in and become full disciples who devote their life to study and service and worship. Some of them get past that mountaintop moment and get discouraged or decide that “the church thing” isn’t for them and they fall away from discipleship but continue to worship. Are they worshiping in vain to a God that has washed his hands of them?


86 posted on 06/27/2015 6:48:01 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Bryanw92
Your description sounds different from the one we've read in the Bible. Doesn't it?

Look again at Luke 13:

"When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are; then shall ye begin to say, We did eat and drink in thy presence, and thou didst teach in our streets; and he shall say, I tell you, I know not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity."

These people knew about Jesus, believed in Him, wanted to be with Him in His kingdom. Why didn't He open the door?

What does Jesus think of people who merely believe on Him? Is believing what makes a disciple?

"Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples" - John 8:31

And listen to what He said to some who believed on Him:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do." - John 8:44

There is no halfway; there are no "full disciples" and partial disciples. To be a disciple, first we have to know what the Master requires, and then we have to do it. Otherwise we'll end up like those who get the door slammed in their faces.

We find 3000 brand new disciples on Pentecost in Acts 2. They heard what the Master required, and they did it. Shouldn't we imitate them, and just do what they did?

Why would we need to spend time investigating "what's the least we can get by with?" Like the Nike ad, let's find out what the King orders, and just do it.
87 posted on 06/27/2015 7:21:04 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: LearsFool; Springfield Reformer; CynicalBear; RnMomof7; metmom; Tennessee Nana; daniel1212; ...
For literally decades I did not have a means to assimilate the seeming disparities of the Bible, from Old Testament to New and within the structure of the Pauline Epsitles. Then I discovered dispensational perspective. I found that studying the scriptures came alive when I applied a few simple tools, like whenever a passage seems to have conflict with another passage, decide to whom the passage is directed, for what time, and if it is meant to have several different temporal applications.

A good example of dispensational perspective is the first three chapters in the Revelation. Each of the seven churches were spoken to, with contemporary application to a particular ekklesia of believers and also for application to specific church behavior through the ages, and as descriptors for epochs of Church History. As such I believe we are in the Laodicean Age.

Using this dispy perspective it becomes clear that the Bible has many layers of God ordained messages for humanity and the two Testaments are intimately connected. I heard once (don't remember where the first time) that the in the Old Testament the New Testament is portrayed, and in the New Testament the Old Testament is revealed, something like that.

So, let's apply the two little tools above mentioned, to unpack your assertion:

'These "workers of iniquity" are those who wouldn't obey His command to "strive to enter in". Yes, He got the door open, but He ain't lettin' them in.'

We will look at to whom Jesus addressed His words, their reactions to His words, the subsequent reaction by Jesus to their repsonses, and finally the larger picture of Jesus's reason for taking flesh to dwell among us. There is definitely 'striving' for the Church Age believers, but it is not striving to enter the Kingdom, it is striving to follow the laws written on our hearts by His Grace and His Holy Spirit within raising us up in the way that we should go. Getting from newborn able to take only milk, to being able to take meat is not an easy thing for us since we retain the Adamic nature while in this body.

First, to whom did Jesus speak the verses you want to bring out for our inspection? when Jesus spoke of striving to enter in, He was referring to the period of human History, specifically Israelite History when striving to keep the laws of Moses was the means by which God was dealing with humanity. The source to show that differentiation is found in Acts 15, where the first church council is revealed in Jerusalem. Peter stands to address the dispute going on between the Pauline details of Gentiles being born from above into the Christian faith in Jesus, and the lack of following Mosaic laws to be born from above.

Pharisees among the church (I imagine Gameliel, Paul's teacher in Pharisaic office being one of them and perhaps Nicodemus, but that's grist for another mill) were insisting that new Christians should be circumcised and strive to follow the laws of Moses, all 600+ of them!

Acts 15 1&2 And certain having come down from Judea, were teaching the brethren — ‘If ye be not circumcised after the custom of Moses, ye are not able to be saved;’ there having been, therefore, not a little dissension and disputation to Paul and Barnabas with them, they arranged for Paul and Barnabas, and certain others of them, to go up unto the apostles and elders to Jerusalem about this question

When Peter stood to speak to the dispute he immediately focused upon the difference between the previous dispensation and the new one, the Old Testament covenant under the law and the New Testament covenant under Grace.

Acts 15:6 - 11 And there were gathered together the apostles and the elders, to see about this matter, and there having been much disputing, Peter having risen up said unto them, ‘Men, brethren, ye know that from former days, God among us did make choice, through my mouth, for the nations to hear the word of the good news, and to believe; and the heart-knowing God did bare them testimony, having given to them the Holy Spirit, even as also to us, and did put no difference also between us and them, by the faith having purified their hearts; now, therefore, why do ye tempt God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? but, through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, even as also they.’

So, Peter, to whom, as our Catholic friends are quick to point out, Peter carrying the keys to the Kingdom gives a short version of the New Covenant participants, Jews and Gentiles, both brought into the Church, the body of believers in Christ as Messiah and Lord via Peter preaching The Gospel of Grace. In the New Covenant there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile for all in His Church are under His Grace by His Grace not their adherence to the laws.

Peter's short explanation also contains a vital clue to differentiate the previous covenant from the New Covenant, and it is precisely what you've raised for discussion: striving, striving to keep the laws. It is this means to interact with God that God, in the Person of Jesus Christ, has given a New way to interact.

To fully comprehend the vitals of this new covenant relationship between Man and God we would need to unpack the Epistles of Paul to the various ekklesia gatherings he established via his missionary journeys. In the interest of brevity I will cite a few which run as themes through his letters.

Paul declares that it is by faith we are saved not by works [Letter to the Romans] ... not by striving. Striving was the hallmark of the covenant of the laws. The Old Testament Prophet, Jeremiah, revealed how God would upgrade that covenant for a new covenant where the laws reflecting the character of God would be written on the hearts and not need to be on stone tablets.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; {Jeremiah 31:33]

I tend to be long winded, so I'll pause here and see if this is coming in clear for you. Then we will continue from this Church Council in Jerusalem.

88 posted on 06/27/2015 7:35:46 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: LearsFool

>>Otherwise we’ll end up like those who get the door slammed in their faces.

Then he should have given us a checklist so we know all the things that we must do.

If he is really as exclusive as you say, then I don’t really care what he wants since I am doomed to fail on technicalities anyway. A “limited” warranty is no warranty at all. Salvation that depends on a secret list of conditions is not salvation. The verses you choose portray God as Lucy with her football and ignore the ones regarding grace.


89 posted on 06/27/2015 7:45:52 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Bryanw92

Ignoring that salvation is by faith usually sifts down to pride of self, and the imagined ability to strive properly or sufficiently to be worthy of Grace. But of course then it is not of Grace but of works for wages due.


90 posted on 06/27/2015 7:51:30 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: Bryanw92
The verses you choose portray God as Lucy with her football and ignore the ones regarding grace.

Then either I have done a poor job or you have misunderstood me. Whichever it is, it certainly needs to be corrected.

The person in Luke 13 asked, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" The original post refers to Jesus' own statement regarding the exclusivity of the kingdom. We can't believe Jesus and not believe what He said on that subject.

The question that arises in our minds next must be, "How do I get in?" The answer is not "just mosey on in at your convenience."

"And he said unto all, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." - Luke 9:23

Does this mean we're "doomed to fail on technicalities" because we stumble along the way? God forbid! In Romans 7, Paul addressed this recurring guilt and vexing fear, as he faced the same thing himself:

"For what I will to do, (i.e. obey God) that I do not practice; but what I hate, (i.e. sin) that I do...For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice...I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." - vv. 14, 19, 21-23

When we find in ourselves this same heart, when we are seeking to know the King's will and to do it as an obedient servant, when we are bearing our own cross though stumbling along the way, when we are striving to enter in by the narrow gate, when we mourn over our sins and cry out with the same desperation as this disciple, "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?" (v. 24), then we have this answer and shout with joy:

"I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." - 7:24-8:1
91 posted on 06/27/2015 8:37:52 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: MHGinTN

Well done!


92 posted on 06/27/2015 9:27:17 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: LearsFool

>>The original post refers to Jesus’ own statement regarding the exclusivity of the kingdom.

So, I am wasting my finite life with the things I do for him because they aren’t enough? I don’t pretend to believe for a second that I am one “a few” if a few is a very small number because I’m just not that good.

Sorry, but I will go with the verses that you ignore and take the ones you like in the context of why Jesus even bothered to come to Earth. He could have saved a select, hard-working few without all the drama.

But what is a “few” anyway? There have been 16 billion people on this planet since the start. As a percentage of that, a “few” is still a lot of people. I believe that his “few” is as many as he wants. It might be 6. It might be 6 billion. He is in charge and I fully accept that.


93 posted on 06/27/2015 9:29:28 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: CynicalBear

It appears to be being ignored ...


94 posted on 06/27/2015 9:29:39 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: MHGinTN
"Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." - Rom. 3:20

Works of law cannot justify, i.e. pronounce one "not guilty". Why not? Because everybody's guilty! (Jesus, of course, wasn't guilty, because He never broke the law.) The law points out our guilt. Isn't that what Paul just said there?

So what now? What hope can a guilty man have? It's no use appealing to the law, since the law is not on his side. When he's on trial, it's no use pointing to the criminal code, or calling as a witness the cop who caught him in the act.

How is a guilty man going to escape the sentence for the crime he's committed? If he is to be acquitted, he needs something besides the law that says he's guilty. How can a guilty man be pronounced "not guilty" i.e. "righteous" when he's guilty? Certainly not by telling about all the times he DIDN'T break the law. That won't help. What choice does he have except to throw himself on the mercy of the court?

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed" (3:21) Ah! A way for a guilty man to be acquitted! He broke the law, but the Judge judges him on a basis other than the law.

And what is this other basis? "even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ" (3:22) So the guilty man who met the Judge's requirements is acquitted.

So is that it? Is that all there is to it? Just have faith?

Not so fast. Let's be sure we understand this faith.

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith."

Hmm. So now the acquitted man is under a "law of faith". Not under the law that points out his crimes but is incapable of helping him escape punishment. No, it's a law that allows forgiveness for his crimes when he commits them.

Some believe that there ARE no crimes under faith, because there is no law. But they're ignoring this "law of faith" Paul mentions.

Further, he poses the question, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" (6:1) Well, if there's no law for the Christian, there can't be any sin, right? And Paul's question would be a straw man, wouldn't it?

The one who appeals for mercy on the basis of his faith in Christ is now under the law of Christ. It is this law which saves us from the punishment we deserved for our crimes under the other law:

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death." - Rom. 8:2

Sorry for being long-winded, but it was my turn. :-)
95 posted on 06/27/2015 9:38:19 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: LearsFool
Try thinking of this from a familial perspective. Once you believe in Him as Deliverer and Lord, you are born from above. Being born from above is a singular event. Jesus told Nicodemus (John 3) that we must be born again, born from above.

Nic tried to re-up his carnal perspective, to focus back on the birth from his mother's womb. Jesus took Him to a 'higher calling', being born from above, spiritual birth. What is spiritual birth? well, it is the dead spirit in the fallen man being born by the Life of God entering the cleansed spirit, to be there as witness that we are in His family thereafter.

The dead spirit of man is cleansed by the sacrifice made for us on the Cross. The Passover lamb was slain to atone then a small portion of the blood --the rest of which was 'poured out upon the earth', the largest altar upon which are smaller altars-- was placed upon the doorposts and lintel for the angel of death to pass over. The blood of Jesus upon the entry to our spirit is signal that we are under His covering of the law of sin and death, no longer subject to the 600+ laws of Moses.

BUT as family members we are to be raised up in the Way that we should go as family members. Who is going to do this parenting thing? The indwelling spirit of God, as the earnest of our inheritance, The Holy Spirit. Is there some way to know what the parameters of this family behavior are? well, yes there is. Jesus explained it as Two Great Commandments upon which hang all the law and the Prophets:

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. [Matt 22:37-40]

96 posted on 06/27/2015 9:57:34 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: Bryanw92

Imagine a phone conversation like this:

“Congratulations, Mr. Bryanw92, we’re giving away a limited number of brand new Porsche 911s, valued at $120,000, and you’ve been selected to receive one.”

“What?! I can’t afford that!”

“No, Mr. Bryanw92, you don’t understand. We’re GIVING you one.”

“Oh, that’s great! I look forward to receiving it!”

“Wonderful. Now, Mr. Bryanw92, we need you to come down to the showroom on Tuesday to show us your driver’s license, fill out the registration and title transfer forms, pick up the keys, and pose for a news story photo.”

“Wow, that sure sounds like a lot of work just for a Porsche 911. Lemme guess, you also expect me to pay for oil changes, annual inspections and tags, fill it up with gas when it gets low, and put new tires on it every few years, huh?”

“Well yes, Mr. Bryanw92, those will be your responsibility. But you understand the car is a free gift.”

“Doesn’t sound free to me! Sounds like I’m EARNING IT!”

That’s the way some people treat the gospel invitation. The caller might reply:

“No, Mr. Bryanw92, if you had to earn it, you wouldn’t be able to afford it. What we’re requiring of you are things you’re able to do. And what we’re offering is something you couldn’t acquire on your own. Don’t confuse ‘conditions for receiving’ with ‘earning’.”

For many people, the price of entering the kingdom is too high. Only few will get in.


97 posted on 06/27/2015 10:04:24 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: LearsFool

Sorry, you are mistaken. The Porsch is driven right up to the door and the keys handed tot he recipient and the title to the car is in the name of Jesus as payer of the price and Mister BryanW as lawful owner for use. By this we know BryanW can obtain insurance on what He has been Given by the Grace of God in Christ. There is no ‘earning the gift’ else it is not a gift, not Grace but an earned thing. You may conceal the earning game as going down to the dealership, but that is not what Jesus or The Bible teaches concerning being born from above.


98 posted on 06/27/2015 10:10:50 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: LearsFool; Elsie

Your reasoning has a distinctly Mormonesque scent to it. They express this twist to the Biblical promise of God as ‘after all you can do to become worthy’.


99 posted on 06/27/2015 10:12:58 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: MHGinTN
Good post, some good points there.

I simply can't understand people's resistance to the Savior's expectations. Is He asking so much?

"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome." - 1 John 5:3

People act like obeying the Lord is just so very hard, such a great burden. But not for His disciples it isn't.

Oh well..."few there be that find it." That's the Lord's doing. I just sow the seed everywhere, and leave the rest in His hands. :-)
100 posted on 06/27/2015 10:22:35 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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