DOCTRINE OF SALVATION BY WORKS Eph 2:9

Bible study notes | 1993 | R. B. Thieme, Jr.

[CynicalBear]

>>But I know what Jesus said about it and one scripture by him is worth more than all of them said by any one else to supposedly contradict what he said.<<

So you don't believe all of scripture is really the words of the Holy Spirit as He inspired the apostles to write? Need I remind you that even the words of Jesus were written by the apostles years after Jesus had ascended into heaven? I would suggest to you that casting doubt on any of the words of scripture is dangerous business.

As to your reference to Matthew 25 the "works" that the righteous did were works rendered AFTER their salvation. Those works were only evidence of their faith. Any other interpretation makes Paul a liar.

[af_vet_1981]

Boy I’m sure glad you and Thieme came along to set things straight! What a bunch of grimey little idiots the rest of the world is! From now on I’m going to listen to you guys; you know everything!

This one may be a stretch for some of you, I don’t know.

However, for those of us who were involved in churches and schools in the 1960’s and 70’s that subscribed to dispensationalist ideology, the name R.B.Thieme (1918–2009) brings back some memories. Thieme was pastor at Berachah Church in Houston, Texas for fifty-three years, from 1950-2003. He graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary, where he was heavily influenced by the teaching of Lewis Sperry Chafer. While at DTS, his studies were interrupted by WWII military service, which also had an effect on his approach to life and ministry. He became affectionately known as “The Colonel” and would wear his military uniform in the pulpit on various occasions.

When Thieme became pastor of Berachah, he immediately dismissed the church board and inaugurated a heavy schedule of teaching services—four nights a week and twice on Sunday. His teaching ministry proliferated throughout the country and around the world through lectures, books, and tapes. At one point the ministry was reported to be sending out thirty thousand tapes per month. Those who have been connected with Thieme or influenced by his teaching include Hal Lindsey (he attended Thieme’s church and mentions RBT in The Late Great Planet Earth), Chuck Swindoll, and Dan and Marilyn Quayle.

By most reports, Bob Thieme was idiosyncratic, pedantic, authoritarian, provocative, prolific, reclusive, and condescending. Many of his teachings are downright looney and some so convoluted that even the diagrams he used to visualize them look like advanced mathematical formulae (see below).

He may be understood as a product of dispensational methodology gone to seed, military style discipline and organization, Cold War sensibilities, and a kind of intellectual hubris by which one creates his own system and then sets himself up as the only expert over it.

RB Thieme named his son, what else ?, RB Thieme Jr., and he inherited his dad's pastorate. Hmmm ...

Sometimes we live no particular way but our own
Sometimes we visit your country and live in your home
Sometimes we ride on your horses
Sometimes we walk alone
Sometimes the songs that we hear are just songs of our own.

[kinsman redeemer]

compare the number of verses that say it’s faith rather than works to the ones that the Catholic Church uses to say otherwise

You ALMOST have the right idea there. But not quite. You are supposed to compare scripture to scripture. You aren't supposed to count verses [but 2 Peter 1:20 does give you a warning about hanging all your laundry on just one hook.]

What Jesus was talking about was the "fruit" not the "root" of their salvation. It's a vital point. I use the word "vital" purposefully because it is a matter of life or death for you.

The "good works" are not the justification for their entrance into the kingdom, but instead, evidence of God's grace in their lives. They are the objective criteria for judgment, because they are the evidence of saving faith.

If you compare scripture with scripture, you will find no contradictions. Here, Jesus is not contradicting what He says elsewhere (through inspiration) when Paul, or Peter, or James (or any other writer writes.)

John 1:14 - Jesus is the Word
2 Tim 3:16 - All Scripture is "God-breathed" (given by inspiration)

.

You say, I don`t know what scriptures the Catholics use to support works-based salvation (my words at the end there). Maybe you should! Otherwise, maybe you should take it upon yourself to study God's Word. See what it says for itself. Learn to "rightly divide" what it says (2 Tim 2:15) so that you can "present yourself approved by God."

That's a good thing: "approved by God."

Right?

[ADSUM]

You can rant all you want to, but your personal biases may be blocking your true understanding of God’s words and actions.

No one forces anyone to accept Catholicism, but one’s anger and hatred toward Catholicism may be harmful to your well being. To my knowledge, you have not stated whether you are a baptized Catholic or belong to another organized religion.

I share with you what I believe and I don’t accept your incredulity or interpretation of the Bible or your anger against the Catholic Church.

For some reason you do not accept God’s gift of His Body and Blood. Your loss.

Jesus did not say, “My flesh is of no avail.” He said, “The flesh is of no avail.” There is a big difference! He obviously would not have said my flesh avails nothing because he just spent a good portion of this same discourse telling us that his flesh would be “given for the life of the world” (John 6:51, cf. 50-58).

“The flesh” is a New Testament term often used to describe human nature apart from God’s grace (see Romans 8:1-14; I Cor. 2:14; 3:1; Mark 14:38).

That which is “spiritual,” or “spirit” used as an adjective as we see in John 6:63, does not necessarily refer to that which has no material substance. It often means that which is dominated or controlled by the Spirit. For example, when speaking of the resurrection of the body, St. Paul writes: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body” (I Cor. 15:44). Does this mean we will not have a physical body in the resurrection? Of course not! Jesus made that clear after his own resurrection in Luke 24:39:

See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have.

The resurrected body is spiritual and indeed we can be called spiritual as Christians inasmuch as we are controlled by the Spirit of God. Spiritual in no way means void of the material. That would be a Gnostic understanding of things, not Christian.

You say you accept Jesus, but you reject some of His teachings.

[ravenwolf]

I would suggest to you that casting doubt on any of the words of scripture is dangerous business.

As to your reference to Matthew 25 the “works”

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Casting doubt? I believe using scripture from Paul to cast doubt on what Jesus said is the best example.

My reference? I did not give any reference, I wrote down exactly what Jesus said in plain words.

So you don’t believe all of scripture is really the words of the Holy Spirit >>>>>>>>>

Why accuse me?

It is you that seems to believe Paul is contradiction what Jesus said, not me.

But if you believe Paul is contradicting Jesus then maybe you should try to shape Paul into the image of Jesus rather than making Jesus into the image of Paul.

Those works were only evidence of their faith. Any other interpretation makes Paul a liar.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That is true, the works Jesus is talking about is the mark of a true believer, the others are the goats.

As to your reference to Matthew 25 the “works” that the righteous did were works rendered AFTER their salvation.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So I guess that is supposed to make what Jesus said null and void?

[RnMomof7]

Patrick Kane is a local kid grew up in my old neighborhood.. so you know who this Saber fan was rooting for :)

[RnMomof7]

Romans 3
(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

AMEN

[RnMomof7]

I do hope that all find the Truth.

John 17: 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

[CynicalBear]

>>It is you that seems to believe Paul is contradiction what Jesus said, not me.<<

No, I believe there is NO contradiction between Jesus and Paul.

>>So I guess that is supposed to make what Jesus said null and void?<<

Where did you ever get that impression? Of course they don't make Jesus words null and void. It was you who claimed that Jesus words were more important than what the Holy Spirit inspired the apostles to write.

[ADSUM]

Your comment: “Your heresy charge made me laugh.”

Perhaps it should make you cry if you reject God’s word and accept an erroneous understanding.

I have defended the Catholic Faith as best I could and there is plenty of information from Catholic sites.

1. Mass is offered daily throughout the world. The Eucharist is a true sacrifice, not just a commemorative meal, as “Bible Christians” insist. The first Christians knew that it was a sacrifice and proclaimed this in their writings. They recognized the sacrificial character of Jesus’ instruction, “Do this in remembrance of me” (Touto poieite tan eman anamnasin; Luke 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:24–25) which is better translated “Offer this as my memorial offering.”

2. Read the Gospels about the Last Supper.

3.Read and understand the words of Jesus. You can accept this teaching and become a Catholic and truly receive the Body and Blood of Jesus.

4. See above. Again you are making a serious mistake/allegation against the word of Jesus. You seem to to be like other followers in the Bible that could not agree with his words and left Jesus and did not follow Him further.

5. I disagree. There are Bishops and Priests who are the successors of the Apostles. They followed Christ’s directions to go forth Baptize and spread the Good News.

6. Yes He said that after He said

Then he took a cup, gave thanks,* and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, 28l for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins. 29* I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.”

“I am the true vine,* and my Father is the vine grower.a 2He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes* so that it bears more fruit.

7. That which is “spiritual,” or “spirit” used as an adjective as we see in John 6:63, does not necessarily refer to that which has no material substance. It often means that which is dominated or controlled by the Spirit. For example, when speaking of the resurrection of the body, St. Paul writes: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body” (I Cor. 15:44). Does this mean we will not have a physical body in the resurrection

8. Eucharist is the human and divine Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus words, “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail” refers to the truth that it is only the Spirit that can accomplish the miracle of the Eucharist and it is only the Holy Spirit that can empower us to believe the miracle.

Seek the Truth and with the help of the Holy Spirit, I hope that you will understand the teachings of Jesus Christ that will lead you to sharing Heaven with Him.

[RnMomof7]

That does not say that one is saved by works does it?

It is describing the work of the SHEEP.

The Sheep were not ever GOATS. the Goats never behaved like sheep

This was the final judgment of rewards , not salvation .

Mat 16:27”For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

Luke 14:14”For thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.”

Rev 22:12”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”

1Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.”

The Goats are condemned , not because they did not work, but because they had never repented and believed

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

They were not sheep because they did the work that God had ordained for them, they did the work because they were the sheep.

Gal. 2:16: “[T]hat we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified

Here Jesus teaching on salvation by works

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The will of the Father is that men believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved...

Hear Jesus

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[CynicalBear]

>>No one forces anyone to accept Catholicism, but one’s anger and hatred toward Catholicism may be harmful to your well being.<<

Not any more then Jesus anger towards the teachings and actions of the Pharisees was harmful to His well being.

>>To my knowledge, you have not stated whether you are a baptized Catholic or belong to another organized religion.<<

I would have no link, ties, or association with the paganism of Catholicism. I belong to the universal ekklesia of Christ.

>>“The flesh” is a New Testament term often used to describe human nature apart from God’s grace<<

Oh sure, He changed topics mid conversation. After talking about His flesh He suddenly changed the topic. NOT!! He was explaining that He wasn't talking about physical flesh but was talking spirit. The apostles understood they weren't literally eating the flesh and blood the same as they understood the Ezekiel didn't literally eat the scroll.

Your still left with the fact that Jesus would have been sinning against the law of not eating blood had He and the apostles eaten literal flesh and blood.

[MHGinTN]

Again, it is the use of a dispensational perspective which helps to find clarity. To whom and for what dispensation are the passages from Matthew 24 onward? These are not for The Church, the body of believers saved by faith and being raised up in the way that they should go by the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit, per se. To know to whom Jesus is directing a statement, look to the context and the preceeding and passages following.

Matthew 25:1-13 Jesus is teaching about the coming of the Kingdom and He likens it to ten virgins, five of whom are not prudent in waiting for the Bridegroom. The five foolish virgins get left behind because the wedding party comes and leaves while the foolish virgins are off shopping.

Matthew 14-30 Jesus gives the parable of the talents to the servants and their use of the 'talents' by each. This is a foreshadowing of the Bema Seat in Heaven, IN HEAVEN. we notice here that one servant give a talent hide the value and had only the one when the accounting was made. Jesus says "29 for to every one having shall be given, and he shall have overabundance, and from him who is not having, even that which he hath shall be taken from him; 30and the unprofitable servant cast ye forth to the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth." To understand this decree one needs to see what 'the talents' are. In other passages we discover that the Gospel preached and the given seal of The Holy Spirit is what Jesus refers to, and to those with nothing, no Holy Spirit seal which allowed an increase in the given, well, you get the gist.

THEN beginning in verse 31 Jesus shifts to: "31 ‘And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory; 32 and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats, 33 and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left." This is chronologically what follows the events which happened in Heaven, the Bema Seat weighing of gains due to the sealing of the Holy Spirit. The previous passages referred to The Bridegroom and His Bride. The passages from 31 on refer to Jesus's RETURN with all His Holy Messengers ... and He is Sitting on His Throne of Glory, for a judging HERE on Earth not in Heaven. Jesus even makes it perfectly clear that this section refers to the Kingship, not the suffering Messiah, and it is about judging humanity that is not a part of the Bride whose 'works' were 'weighed' at the Bema Seat.

We are assured that some during the Israel evangelizing will be saved. In fact it is going to be the greatest revival in Human History! The separation of sheep and goats is parablesque, in that Jesus differentiates by value, something the Jews listening to Him would have immediately connected with. THERE is the judging according to the behaviors while in the flesh. All who were not raised and transformed at the Rapture of His Church, they are whom Jesus addresses.

The dispensational perspective can be a useful tool for clarity. Is it any wonder that satan despises the mention of the term and spittles ridicule whenever the tool is raised? If you go back to Matthew 24:26-51 you are given the dispensation of the ending Church Age. THEN Jesus shifts to the chronology of the rewards review at the Bema Seat in Heaven. At the very end of 24 is perhaps the most troubling Truth for those who are Nicolaitanized in their dealing with the searching souls. I believe this section refers to those of priesthoods and rituals twisted to mislead the souls desiring Truth and getting beaten up by heresies like 'drinking the literal blood of Jesus', or the Mormon doctrine of working to be worthy of Grace.

[MHGinTN]

Know this before you read, ONLY those who are overcoming, who are overcomers, have the Holy Spirit seal and His Spirit indwelling them, being raised up in the way that they should go; in His presence no flesh shall be glorified, so the Holy Spirit seal is a basic requirement ... Rev 2:1-8 ‘To the messenger of the Ephesian assembly write: These things saith he who is holding the seven stars in his right hand, who is walking in the midst of the seven lamp-stands — the golden:

2 I have known thy works, and thy labour, and thy endurance, and that thou art not able to bear evil ones, and that thou hast tried those saying themselves to be apostles and are not, and hast found them liars, and thou didst bear, and hast endurance, and because of my name hast toiled, and hast not been weary. ‘But I have against thee: That thy first love thou didst leave! remember, then, whence thou hast fallen, and reform, and the first works do; and if not, I come to thee quickly, and will remove thy lamp-stand from its place — if thou mayest not reform; but this thou hast, that thou dost hate the works of the Nicolaitans, that I also hate. He who is having an ear — let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: To him who is overcoming — I will give to him to eat of the tree of life that is in the midst of the paradise of God.

[ravenwolf]

Right?

You are supposed to compare scripture to scripture.

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Not sure because I have no idea what you are agreeing or disagreeing with.

You are supposed to compare scripture to scripture.>>>>>>>>>

The complete chapter of Luke 6 is summarized in Matthew 25:31-46 which is where faith is shown by the works which are the good fruits Luke 6:43 and 44.

[MHGinTN]

Elsie can tell you that goats kind of do what they want, whereas sheep will accept leadership and be a flock not in revolt. Goats will just go wherever they please, so a leader GOAT is always necessary to herd goats along.

[ravenwolf]

It was you who claimed that Jesus words were more important than what the Holy Spirit inspired the apostles to write.

---

Exactly, as Paul himself said in Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;

[MHGinTN]

Sorry, the assertion is in error. The passage in Matt25:31-46 does not refer to the Chruch, those with the Sel of the Holy Spirit and indwelling Spirit. Again, the use of the tool of dispensations can avoid such an erroneous connection.

[kinsman redeemer]

[ADSUM]

Your comment: “I would have no link, ties, or association with the paganism of Catholicism. I belong to the universal ekklesia of Christ.”

So you are in a church by yourself. Sorry to hear that you are not baptized.

Just for your information (in the Bible):

“The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [Jn 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mk 16:16]” (CCC 1257).

According to 1 Peter 3:21:

“Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Your comment: “Your still left with the fact that Jesus would have been sinning against the law of not eating blood had He and the apostles eaten literal flesh and blood.”

So again you accuse Jesus of sinning and ignore what Jesus actually gave us at the Last Supper. You either accept the words of Jesus or make excuses for His words.

This leads us to reflect on the institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper. It took place within a ritual meal commemorating the foundational event of the people of Israel: their deliverance from slavery in Egypt. This ritual meal, which called for the sacrifice of lambs (cf. Ex 12:1-28, 43-51), was a remembrance of the past, but at the same time a prophetic remembrance, the proclamation of a deliverance yet to come. The people had come to realize that their earlier liberation was not definitive, for their history continued to be marked by slavery and sin. The remembrance of their ancient liberation thus expanded to the invocation and expectation of a yet more profound, radical, universal and definitive salvation. This is the context in which Jesus introduces the newness of his gift. In the prayer of praise, the Berakah, he does not simply thank the Father for the great events of past history, but also for his own “exaltation.” In instituting the sacrament of the Eucharist, Jesus anticipates and makes present the sacrifice of the Cross and the victory of the resurrection. At the same time, he reveals that he himself is the true sacrificial lamb, destined in the Father’s plan from the foundation of the world, as we read in The First Letter of Peter (cf. 1:18-20). By placing his gift in this context, Jesus shows the salvific meaning of his death and resurrection, a mystery which renews history and the whole cosmos. The institution of the Eucharist demonstrates how Jesus’ death, for all its violence and absurdity, became in him a supreme act of love and mankind’s definitive deliverance from evil.

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.q 36But I told you that although you have seen [me], you do not believe.r 37Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me,