Posted on 05/18/2015 6:05:47 PM PDT by Old Yeller
For years, growing up as a Roman Catholic, we were taught that we were members of the one true church. It was impressed upon us regularly by the parish priest during Mass while giving his homily; by the nuns all throughout my Catholic parochial school years of second through seventh grade.
It was impressed upon us during our preparation to receive for the first time the sacraments of Penance, Communion and Confirmation. And while attending CCD classes all the way through high school. (CCD is the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, an association established at Rome in 1562 for the purpose of giving religious education, normally designed for children.)
It was an established fact that we understood and we never questioned the validity of it. And to be honest, it was a matter of pride, that we were privileged enough to be members of the correct church, while all others had belonged to something else that didn’t quite measure up to the status of the Roman Catholic Church.
After all, how could it be possible that Roman Catholicism is not the one true church?
Look at what Rome has to offer: It has the priests, the nuns; the bishops; the cardinals; and of course, the Pope. They have the Sacraments; the statues; the holy water; the incense; the Stations of the Cross; the Eucharist - in which Chris supposedly physically manifests Himself into the wafer after the consecration by the priest during the Mass; the Marian apparitions—which appear mainly to Roman Catholics.
And they have the Vatican, where the Vicar of Christ (who they believe is Christ’s representative on earth), governs the faithful and makes infallible proclamations and doctrine. How can this not be the one true church? No other organization on the face of the earth comes close to offering to its flock what Rome provides for its faithful.
But, of course, to be true, one must adhere to what has been established as truth and not teach or practice what is contrary to the truth. We read in Scripture a few passages that declare what is truth and what is not. Jesus proclaimed in John 14:6:
“I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.”
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
So... God is not sovereign?
To imply that we can, in some way, decline God's will for our lives (as in some way to "refuse" salvation) is to make God someone WE can in some way control or influence; God would no longer be... God.
John 6:
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
And later...
44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day
we really cannot say how it is that God knew Mary would bow her head and say 'thank you, Lord; be it unto me according to God's will.'
Actually, we really can: it was God's will for her. God is sovereign. He is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and eternal. If not, he's not God.
No doubt, Mary favored; Gabriel said so. But, because God CHOSE her, it would BE her.
Hoss
Potter...clay
You ignored the guidelines again.
Leave this thread.
Well said and thank you!!
Or, Catholics are duped enough to believe that in some way, veneration doesn't equal worship when the object of "veneration" RECEIVES PRAYER.
Prayer is used to worship. To whom did Christ teach his disciples to pray? Saints? Martyrs? Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob? His mom?
no....
God. Him alone.
You can play semantic games all you want between Hyper Dulia and Latria and all that ignorance -- bottom line is this: if you pray to someone/something, you WORSHIP them. By praying to Mary and the Saints, Roman Catholics ascribe to them traits that are God's alone.
All this equals idolatry. Or Mariolatry.
Hoss
God has 'foreknoweldge' but that does not mean He is responsible for our failures. To assert that is to follow satan's ploy which is aimed at getting humans to blame God for the evils in the Universe, the ills that befall them.
One more time, we do not know what was going through Mary's mind and heart prior to Gabriel being sent to her with the astonishing blessing. Since we do not know that (and it might not help our feeble minds but is in God's purview to divine her heart), do not know what she was pondering or longing for or making ready for or anticipating as a betrothed at such a young age (common in her day), well we should not assume God would in anyway force Mary to be the womb for God's Grace in Christ. THAT is unseemly.
Absolutely.
Hoss
A Catholic woman I knew who was a worshipper of Mary asked her "priest" if God was female. Said "Priest" said "You can think of God as female if you want".
No straw man dangled at all; just a simple question. If God is sovereign, he can do his will as he sees fit to his honor and glory.
If he's not... then we have some control over him and can deny him his will. If that's the case... he's not God.
But even as much as He loves each of us, he will not compel an individual to keep them out of damnation.
Remember Christ's teaching about the sheep and the goats? If God intended for ALL of us to be saved.. wouldn't we be? There would be NO goats.
And... yet there are. To infer that there are not is to subscribe to Universalism.
God chooses whom he will to save. Those not chosen will NEVER be saved. We are all born into original sin, deserving from the the moment of our conception to be damned to hell for our sins. We are sinners. When God calls us.. draws us... saves us, then he changes our hearts and we no longer want to sin. Until then, sinning is what we want to do the most -- our will -- because we are sinners.
God not only has foreknowledge, he knows ALL. Omniscience. He knows EVERYTHING -- start to finish.
God isn't a puppet master if he punishes us for what we deserve to punished for -- our sin -- that would make him.. Just. That's justice for us. For those he elects and calls, and draws and saves, he gives us...mercy.
We have no volition to worship God unless he changes our hearts.... we're certainly created with the desire to worship; but until God saves us, we do NOT want to worship him! We want anything BUT.
Remember when Paul said in Ephesians 2:
" 1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Until God chooses us and calls us, we want nothing to do with him. We are at enmity with him.
So... there's nothing unseemly about God choosing Mary to bear Jesus. Mary obviously had faith -- but like us all she too needed a Savior. And when God told her what was going to happen, she obeyed.
Hoss
Therein lies the problem. Catholics don't really believe that God hears them and answers them Himself.
Some even teach that we can get things from God easier and faster if we go through Mary cause God can't or won't tell her no.
So much for trusting God.
Something no Protestant mind ever thought of or said.
The only source I’ve ever heard that from is Catholics.
Kind of telling at that.......
The Protestant God is a rapist!
Only in a sick, Catholic mind...
You are implying Mary could have said no...But you didn't mention Peter could have said no as well...What good would it have done for Mary to say yes and then Peter say no??
Or where would Peter have been if the other apostles said no, including Judas Iscariot???
Do you really think a church would exist if Paul would have said no???
And let's move on to Herod...What if he would have released Jesus instead of having him crucified??? Or cousin Liz??? Where would we be without John the Baptist...Do you venerate Elizabeth???
Your entire premise is just whacky...
There was not a single thing said nor even a single time that someone could construe an idea that anyone on the FR Religion Forum hates, or even dislikes Mary...
It would be impossible for you to provide a post indicating anything close to that...
Here's something for you to ponder...
Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
And you claim to be a Priest of the one, true, religion of God, eh???
To think that any Catholic would go to such lengths to smear non-Catholics exposes such hate expressed against Protestants.
First let me say I respect both of you, and regard this as one of the most challenging bits of theology there is. Each party to the conversation should bear in mind that we are but dust in contemplation of high matters.
But with that said, I believe in what God says more than I believe in my own impulse to justify the actions of God. Jesus clearly says no one can come to the Son unless he is drawn by the Father. And being drawn to Him is necessary, because we are such sinners we would never come to Him based on our supposed freedom. In fact, we as lost sinners are slaves to our lost nature. Like Paul says, no one seeks God. So our being chosen in Him, election, predestination, is essential to our salvation. We would all be lost unless He intervened in grace.
What about foreknowledge? Unfortunately, we have diluted the meaning of that with modern fanciful theories of time travel, etc. In Paul’s day it did not imply God looking forward in time to see what we would do, then basing His actions on that. That is an unbiblical invention.
And let me say I am very sympathetic to it. I believed that way for many years, and my father also believed that way. So this is not theoretical to me, but very personal. I changed my views because one night in the men’s dormitory at Moody Bible Institute I and a friend named Frank sat up late into the night arguing over Romans chapter 9. At the end of that debate, I threw in the towel, and admitted to myself that my robot/puppet argument to defend an absolutist view of free will just didn’t line up with Scripture. It was a hard moment.
Anyway, long story short, I don’t understand every aspect of how God works, and I don’t profess to. I do know none of us would be there to keep Him company in Heaven if He waited for us to change our own sinful natures and do the right thing without Him intervening.
But again, what about foreknowledge? In Paul’s day, to foreknow is not to do a time travel trick, but to recognize someone in advance. Recall how Jesus says to the goats on judgment day, “I never knew you.” That’s the sense. Of course He knew *about* them, everything they would do, say, think, choose, etc. But here at judgment day he doesn’t “know” them in the sense of not recognizing them as belonging to Him.
So it is with fore-knowing us as believers. What He knew about us is that we were dead in our sins, and that without Him calling into the tomb of our dead existence and saying, “Lazarus, come forth,” we would still being lying on that metaphorical slab of cold stone, children of wrath, on our way to eternal doom. He changed that. We love Him, because He first loved us.
Again, I know this runs against what we in our modern age think of when we consider who God is. But He is our sovereign Creator. He has a right to raise us from the dead. We sure don’t deserve it. I personally am embarrassed by it, that He should have been so especially good to someone so completely undeserving of it. But then again, it isn’t my place to question His decision. I am happy for it, but will never cease to be amazed by it. I will probably spend the first few thousand years of eternity singing Amazing Grace, if we can still remember such things when we are there.
Peace,
SR
Free will...predestination...all that...
I just trust and believe the Word of God, Lord Jesus Christ, and in every one of God’s promises that even remotely may pertain to me.
The rest, I leave to you guys with the degrees. But I’m always correct anyway. Except when Elsie shows me wrong. Or the famous you-are-wrong verga...
I like your post, SR.
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