Posted on 05/12/2015 12:17:08 PM PDT by Gamecock
“Please tell me if you believe God knows everything that will happen in the next 10 minutes?”
Certainly, he must if He is all-knowing.
“Or, do you hold that the future is made up of many “free will” decisions (by “free agents”), and since they have no constraint upon them, no guidance, no pre-determination, then there are something approaching an infinite number of futures about to occur?”
Yes, I believe that is also true, except for the part about “infinite number of futures”. There might be an “infinite number of possible futures”, but there is only one future, based on the choices that are actually made. As soon as a choice is made, all the other “possible futures” arising from that decision point would cease to be possibilities. I also believe that there is no contradiction between the first proposition and the second.
“Or, do you hold to a what has been called a “contingent” future? That is, God knows approximately how people will behave, and in His great wisdom He guesses very well at those outcomes.”
Well, that is certainly something God could probably do, since God would know every creature’s nature and personality very well, but I don’t think it is necessary for God to “guess”, so I don’t think that is actually what is happening. God knows what will happen, so there can’t be guessing involved, or He could be wrong on some counts, which cannot be true.
“Or, do you have yet another paradigm that you believe the Bible has described?”
Well, it is like I have said, we have free will, but God still knows what will happen, and I see no contradiction between the two. Knowing what will happen is not the same thing as controlling what will happen. We are only tempted to think that is true, because that is what would be have to be true for US to predict the future, but it doesn’t logically hold true for God.
Think of it this way. God, who is outside of time and space, and not limited by anything, can see the entirety of fourth-dimensional space-time, in all directions. On the other hand, we can only perceive one slice of space-time (the present), and our perception progresses forward constantly outside of our control (we can’t look back at the past or future, or choose to stay in the “present”, we are just carried along).
So, we have a perception that there is this “future” that is unwritten, but is this true for God, or is it simply an artifact of our limited perception? We don’t have many tools to answer that question that aren’t biased by our own perception in the first place. One would be revelation from God, since he is outside of our limitations, and the others might be science and mathematics, as they allow us to discover things outside of the natural limits of our perception.
Both those sources seem to tell us that our limitations wouldn’t be binding on God. God himself says as much directly, and as for science/math, well that seems to tell us that time is just another dimension, and there are many “artifacts” (such as equations of real world phenomena routinely returning imaginary numbers as solutions) that suggest there are things going on in that dimension we can’t perceive. When we discovered relativity and started representing space-time mathematically, we learned that we needed those imaginary numbers to represent our fourth-dimension axis. So I think that fact, that these numbers were discovered before we truly understood their purpose, is good scientific evidence that there is a dimension of time that functions much like the others and we simply can only perceive it in a very limited sense.
So, even though our choices aren’t written in advance, anyone who could perceive the entirety of the fourth dimension could see what choices would be made. This wouldn’t even be “predicting the future” as we conceive of it, because for such a being, “the future” is a meaningless concept. To them, all the actions that ever will occur have already occurred.
Well, if you re-read your post, you have “answered” the question that there is one future which God does know. As you point out, once that future is established (which it must be or there would not be a future that He knew definitively), the other options cease to be possible. Thus, the “free agents” are not free.
If you were consistent, you would be an Open Theist contending that God does not know the unchosen future any more than we do BECAUSE the free choices have not been made yet. However, you attempt to say, Up is both down and up. That may be grammatically correct, but it is not possible in the world. A is not non-A. Law of the excluded middle.
Again, I am not referring to our “perceptions” of reality (which are governed by our discoveries), but by reality itself. If there is only one outcome for the future, WHICH God actually knows, then that outcome must occur exactly as He knows it AND there is no alternate reality which could have occurred. There are alternatives which one could have imagined to have occurred, but they could not have occurred if they did not comport with the reality God knows is going to occur.
“Again, I am not referring to our “perceptions” of reality (which are governed by our discoveries), but by reality itself. If there is only one outcome for the future, WHICH God actually knows, then that outcome must occur exactly as He knows it AND there is no alternate reality which could have occurred.”
Ah, but you are talking about your perception of reality; that is quite plain from the language you are using. To you, there is a “future” with outcomes that haven’t been determined, because that is how we perceive time. Since God exists outside of time and space, that cannot be how He perceives time. So you are anthropomorphizing God, and it is understandable why, since we have no real way to visualize how God would perceive time so it is natural to assume it is the same way that we do, but that is not logical or true.
No, I am saying that there is a "future" with a single outcome that HAS been determined. So, please don't say that I believe in "outcomes that haven't been determined."
Of course God exists outside of time and space. He manufactures time as it unfolds and created space from "nothing nothing". Your words are simply claiming that there are multiple outcomes possible but because Gdo knows the one that will occur multiple outcomes are possible. This is nonsense. Come to reality, my FRiend. Is there a single outcome that God knows about? Yes, or no?
“Well, if you re-read your post, you have “answered” the question that there is one future which God does know.”
Sure, I’ll buy that, there can only be one future, since everyone can only actually choose one out of the many possibilities when they are at some point in the “decision tree”.
“As you point out, once that future is established (which it must be or there would not be a future that He knew definitively), the other options cease to be possible. Thus, the “free agents” are not free.”
No, you’re logic goes off the rails here. There will be only one future, because if we were at the “end of time”, and could look backwards, we would only see one chain of events that actually occurred. However, that doesn’t mean that no other future could have happened. Alternate futures were possible at every point, they just didn’t happen, because choices were made that narrowed those possibilities to the single chain of events that did happen.
Just because God can perceive the entire chain of events doesn’t mean that He is forcing any of the decisions that lead to it. He just has a level of perception far beyond ours, so that he can see the entire span of history, while we are bound to see only one sliver at a time.
Really, even saying there is a “future” that God knows is a misleading statement, because none of it is “future” to God. He is not bound by time, and past, future, present are all words that are human descriptions of OUR state in time. God has no such “position” or “direction of travel” in that dimension, unless He were to choose to enter into our universe and let those terms have some meaning for Him (as when He incarnated as Christ).
“If you were consistent, you would be an Open Theist contending that God does not know the unchosen future any more than we do BECAUSE the free choices have not been made yet.”
No, I believe I’m being totally consistent, it just may not be an easy argument to grasp. The future is unchosen (until we choose it), but that is only meaningful to us, because of our perception of time. God perceives things differently, so when you try to apply our views of time to Him, you are going to draw bad conclusions.
“However, you attempt to say, Up is both down and up. That may be grammatically correct, but it is not possible in the world. A is not non-A. Law of the excluded middle.”
No, I’m don’t think that is what I am doing. I am not saying “the future is both chosen and unchosen”. I am saying that we perceive the future to be unchosen, because we cannot see it. If we could see it, then we would necessarily have to see it as chosen, not because it is predetermined, but because it will be determined, once it occurs. Whether the future is an open tree of possibilities or a single unbranching line of finalities is a matter of perspective, not a difference in reality.
That’s apparent from how we view the past versus how we view the future. When we know what choices are made during a period of time, as we can with the past, then it becomes an unbranching line. When we don’t know, as with the future, then it is a tree of possibilities. The only difference is in our knowledge, which depends on the limitations of our perception. At each point, in the past or future, time is filled with human actors, making decisions from a range of possibilities. All that changes is our ability to perceive what choices are made.
“No, I am saying that there is a “future” with a single outcome that HAS been determined.”
That statement itself is contradictory. If we are talking about the future, you can’t use past-tense words like “has been determined” to describe it.
“Of course God exists outside of time and space. He manufactures time as it unfolds...”
Does He manufacture time as it unfolds? That doesn’t seem to be a good assumption, if time functions like the spatial dimensions. God doesn’t just expand height, width, and depth as people move around and need more space. A dimension, by its nature, extends in two directions to infinity. If it doesn’t, then it is not truly a dimension, but something else.
“Is there a single outcome that God knows about? Yes, or no?”
Yes.
Meanwhile, most “conservative” Catholics only recognize “liturgical abuse” as the key problem in the post - Vatican II church.
I am not sure we are communicating here. You said there is a future with a single outcome that God knows. When I say that it is “determined”, I simply mean this “single outcome” is the ONLY outcome that will occur. That single outcome (which you agree God knows), by definition, makes it impossible for any other outcome to occur. I am not speaking hypothetically, but realistically. If no other outcome can occur, then the “free agents” are actually just marching their way to (and through) that single outcome (which God knows). Irrespective of what the agents “feel” or “think” or “decide”, they are moving toward the outcome that God knows about. This is not contradictory; it is observant and logical and Biblical.
Whether time is being manufactured as it is presented to us or whether time is some kind of “thing” God created in one moment, is not really important. I suspect we may never know this because it affects nothing.
But, what is clear is that there is no “infinity”, if by this you mean “never beginning and never ending”. The universe, as big as it might be, is finite. God is the only infinite being in existence. Otherwise, we have a universe that is equal to God and we know that Creation Ex Nihilo is true. I don’t find anything infinite in the Scriptures (Job, et al). He is definitely larger/longer lived than it all and if He is infinite, the universe is infinity minus something. Thus, because all dimensions are also created, they too are less than infinite, irrespective of Hugh Ross’ contentions. To some extent, this means even “heaven” is a created place and is not infinite.
You may wish to argue this from a theoretical (or mathematical/scientific standpoint), but I believe the Scriptural perspective trumps these.
“You said there is a future with a single outcome that God knows. When I say that it is “determined”, I simply mean this “single outcome” is the ONLY outcome that will occur. That single outcome (which you agree God knows), by definition, makes it impossible for any other outcome to occur.”
No, it doesn’t. At any point in time, there are various possible futures. The fact that, at the end of time, you can look back and see that only one path was chosen, does not mean that those other possibilities could not have occurred. They could have, they just did not.
I think you’re still stuck thinking of time as a human perceives it, which is understandable, but it is causing you to make incorrect assumptions, and those assumptions lead to incorrect conclusions.
“I am not speaking hypothetically, but realistically. If no other outcome can occur, then the “free agents” are actually just marching their way to (and through) that single outcome (which God knows).”
You’re getting hung up on “no other outcome can occur”. Of course it can. Since you are using future tense, then you are talking from a human perspective, and the future is unknown. If you want to talk about God’s perspective, you have to stop using those human-centered terms and start trying to imagine what it must be like for God to look at time.
Perhaps it would help to think of God, not outside of time, but sitting at the end of the universe, looking back. From that perspective, He doesn’t know what will occur, but only what has occurred. It would be no different than you looking in your memories back at your own past. Just because you know what choices you made and what occurred, doesn’t mean you were forced to make those choices. You only see those results of your choices in retrospect. They didn’t become a fixed reality until you made them.
“Irrespective of what the agents “feel” or “think” or “decide”, they are moving toward the outcome that God knows about. This is not contradictory; it is observant and logical and Biblical.”
Yes, they are moving towards that outcome, but only because that is what they actually end up deciding to do. That doesn’t make their choices or free will illusory. If they were to decide to do things differently, then God would have seen a different future.
“Whether time is being manufactured as it is presented to us or whether time is some kind of “thing” God created in one moment, is not really important. I suspect we may never know this because it affects nothing.”
Oh but it is important, and it does have an impact on the question. If time doesn’t exist until we “need” it, then God could not perceive it until he manufactured it. However, that makes no sense at all. For to use a word like “until” presupposes that God is bound by time, which can’t be true.
It’s difficult to be certain of the true nature of time because we are so limited in our perception of it. However, we do have one mathematical description of it that we have derived without resort to human biases. That model allows us to make testable predictions which we have verified through experiment. So the model, even if it is not a complete description of time, must be at least a partially accurate approximation of the nature of time, and until we develop a better model, its only logical for us to use that one when trying to talk about time.
“But, what is clear is that there is no “infinity”, if by this you mean “never beginning and never ending”. The universe, as big as it might be, is finite.”
Sure, the universe may be finite, but that doesn’t mean that there are no infinites. Especially if we are talking about dimensions, because dimensions are not contained within the universe. Rather, the universe is something that exists with the dimensions, which, by definition, are infinite. All the higher mathematics necessary to describe the universe and what is in it are riddled with infinites. For example, if we want to describe a field, such as an electromagnetic field, or a gravitational field, its boundaries are always infinite. That’s the nature of a field, it radiates in all directions to infinity (unless it is absorbed, deflected, etc by some intervening thing). If it didn’t, then it would not be a field, but something else entirely.
“God is the only infinite being in existence. Otherwise, we have a universe that is equal to God...”
Whoa, hold your horses there. “Infinite” is descriptor of magnitude, not a descriptor of nature. So if a thing has some infinite quality, it does not automatically become of equal nature to God. Yes, God must have infinite qualities, and surely more of them than anything else in existence. However, a field with an infinite extent does not become God, it’s still just a field. The fact that it possesses a property that has a magnitude equal to the magnitude of properties God must have does nothing to change the nature of the field.
“I don’t find anything infinite in the Scriptures (Job, et al).”
Well, the Bible is not a physics or mathematics textbook, so that isn’t surprising.
“Thus, because all dimensions are also created, they too are less than infinite, irrespective of Hugh Ross’ contentions.”
Here you are making another mistake, because you are lessening God. Unintentionally, I’m sure, but that is what you are doing. You are saying “God could not make something of an infinite magnitude”, thereby placing a limit on what God can do. In your zeal to assign the quality of “infinite” to God alone, you have reduced God to something finite!
“You may wish to argue this from a theoretical (or mathematical/scientific standpoint), but I believe the Scriptural perspective trumps these.”
Well, your “Scriptural perspective” is actually a subjective interpretation of Scripture, is it not? You believe that Scripture is portraying matters in a certain way, and if science and math disagree, you favor your scriptural interpretation. However, I would say that if you cannot reconcile your interpretation with the reality that we observe and analyze with science, then it may be a sign that the interpretation is incorrect, for science describes God’s creation, and therefore, a different description of it (the Biblical one) should not be in disagreement (unless the scientific description is incorrect).
There is only one creation that both are describing, after all. As for mathematics, that is not really a language we invented, but one that we have discovered. If an alien race existed on another planet, they might have different symbols for numbers and operations, they might use a different decimal system, but they would observe the same mathematical ratios and formulas describing the universe that we do. That “universal mathematics” was authored by God himself, so it absolutely should be reconcilable with the Scriptural descriptions.
"No, it doesn’t. At any point in time, there are various possible futures. The fact that, at the end of time, you can look back and see that only one path was chosen, does not mean that those other possibilities could not have occurred. They could have, they just did not."
The question is, "Does God know of ONE SINGLE OUTCOME? or does HE have to wait and see what will happen because it has not happened yet in our real space-time reality?" That is, is God truly Omniscient with respect to the future or do you believe as the Open Theists believe that He cannot know what has not yet happened (because of the free agency of man)? Don't say, "Well, then He would know something different if something different was chosen." That is gibberish and akin to saying, "Well, tomorrow is jelly unless it is a bicycle." We cannot move forward without this being settled.
"That in the dispensation of the FULNESS OF TIMES he might gather together in one all things in Christ..."(Eph. 1:10)
"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"(Eph. 3:9).
This tells me all I need to know about His Omniscience": He KNOWS. He knows it so well that before He even set the foundation of the world, He had ALREADY chosen us in Him.
“I am saying in reality, there is only ONE OUTCOME which God sees as He views the future (in His unlimited Omniscience and Foreknowledge).”
What future? There is nothing “in the future”, from God’s perspective. That isn’t dancing, it’s a simple fact. You are mixing your frames of reference, talking about what God sees, but talking about it as if God were a man. That is a fundamentally flawed framework.
“And, it doesn’t matter if you want to view Him sitting at the end of time looking backward. There is just one outcome that He either knows or doesn’t know. If there is one outcome that He knows, that means it and only it will happen!”
No, it does matter how you view this, because we are not God. We are incapable of knowing exactly how God sees things, because we don’t have any experience or true conception of it. So, if we are trying to reason about those kinds of things, we have to be careful of our perceptions and basic assumptions about those perceptions betraying us, and biasing our thinking.
Basically, you can call it a form of confirmation bias, but one that is much more intrinsic than what we normally use that term for, because these are not ideological things that bias us, but fundamental aspects of our nature biasing us.
So you say, “God sees the future, and it will happen”, but God is not really sitting in the past, looking forward. I could just as well say “God sees the past as it already happened”. Neither one of those statements is actually accurate. Yet, we don’t have any terms that are available to our human brains to accurately describe the true picture. God is not in the past looking forward, or in the future looking back, but he is outside of time, looking in, and we have no idea what the implications of that are. So my mentioning of the alternate perspective (of God looking back) really is just to serve to illustrate how framing the question in our human terms can shape the conclusions you will draw. You’re doing it a certain way, and it causes you to think certain conclusions are inescapable, but since your description is not accurate, the conclusions you perceive cannot be taken for granted.
“The question is, “Does God know of ONE SINGLE OUTCOME? or does HE have to wait and see what will happen because it has not happened yet in our real space-time reality?””
Again, you are talking about God as if he is human. God doesn’t experience the passing of time. He doesn’t “wait” for anything. There is no “yet” for God. If half the words you are using in your question are meaningless in regards to the subject of the question, then what reliable conclusions can you draw from the answer?
Yes, we can say God knows what happened, what is happening, and what will happen. Yet, that assertion can’t support what you are trying to build upon it.
“Don’t say, “Well, then He would know something different if something different was chosen.” That is gibberish and akin to saying, “Well, tomorrow is jelly unless it is a bicycle.””
Your question is gibberish as it applies to God! So how can you expect anything other than a gibberish answer? Garbage in, garbage out.
“He had ALREADY chosen us in Him.”
Ah, but did he choose what you had for breakfast this morning? Or if someone chooses to commit murder, did God make that choice for them?
That’s what we are really arguing about. Not election or predestination, but absolutely predetermination, where free will in all matters is only an illusion.
It is fruitless (according to God's direction and apparently His plan) to argue with someone who will not acknowledge what the Scripture teaches. I set out a number of texts which conclusively tell you that God is managing your every move. Yes, what you had for breakfast. You argue back with philosophy...the same dead philosophy of unbelievers. There are dozens of episodes in the Scriptures describing God causing men to sin, but yet He remains innocent of sin. How does He do that? He is God. There is, according to Him, nothing unjust in Him. But, you are assessing His character according to rules you have established...not Him. I must go to work.
“I set out a number of texts which conclusively tell you that God is managing your every move.”
No you didn’t. You quoted a few texts that you INTERPRET to mean that, and then ignored texts that I posted in response which contradict your interpretation. Don’t confuse your interpretation with the Word of God.
“You argue back with philosophy...”
No, you retreated from the Scriptures that I posted and began the philosophical argument yourself in post #178. If you want to go back to Scripture, then you’ll have to deal with the contradictory verses that you never answered, such as this one:
“16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.”
1 John 2:16
According to you, God is causing everything we do, including sins, but according to that verse, those things are not from God. Can you explain the contradiction? If not, then your interpretation cannot be correct, for a proper hermeneutic doesn’t produce contradictions.
Think about it. You wrote that John teaches everything of the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life, comes from the world, not from God the Father. If I am not mistaken, you are understanding this to say John is arguing that the “origin” of all of these sinful passions are from somewhere other than God. That is one possibility. However, if this is what John is arguing, then he contradicts himself in John 1:1ff wherein there is nothing that has come into being apart from Him.
If he is not contradicting himself, what other argument could he now be making? Let me suggest that what John is getting at is that if I hunger after a woman who is not my wife (lust of the eyes), that lust is not something I should say matches what the Father is directing me in the Scriptures to do. The cult, Moses David and the Children of God, fell victim to this errant thinking. If I follow this cult’s view and say that lust must be good because God created everything to be gratefully enjoyed, I would be ascribing to God a directive that He did not issue. I would be putting false words into His mouth. But that is not to say that God is not managing me (or the cult) to fail.
But, John cannot be saying that that the “pride of life” which infects all believers and unbelievers is not a creation of God, nor is it used by God. How can I know this? First of all, he has already said everything that is, is created by Jesus the Word. And, the Word IS God. But, secondly, all throughout the Scriptures God uses evil on both chosen and unchosen folks to accomplish all kinds of outcomes that fit His plan. One example:
I Kings 22:19-23
And Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on His throne and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. And the Lord said, “Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?” And one said this while another said that. Then a spirit (remember these must have been the good angel messengers surrounding God since the demons had long been cast out) came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice Him.” And the Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ The He said, “you are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’”
Really? Go and entice? I thought you said nothing like this came from God. This is just one of several examples of enticement being managed by God to accomplish His end. God Himself does not say anything to tease the man, nor directly try to fool him. But, He does apply His control to get it used. That circuitous application is what the Bible is calling “tempting”. And while it originates from God, it is not Him directly teasing someone.
For example, “tempting” is what Satan did to Jesus. But, did the Father direct this? Evidently. How do I know this? Well, notice
II Sam. 24:1
Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel and it (God’s anger at work) incited David against them to say, “Go and number Israel and Judah.”
There is no question that the stated will of God is that Israel NOT number themselves so that they did not rely upon a “strength of forces” view for their protection. God said He wanted them to rely on Him, alone. But, as He foments their rebellion, His anger grows (yes, all part of His plan) and He specifically causes David to tell them to sin. And, who do you think God directed to incite David?
I Chronicles 21:1
Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel.
Yes, God pushes Satan around like kid on coaster wagon. Even Satan is used as God’s agent. Whatever paradigm we hold for God at work, we must be willing to recognize these clear teachings from the Scriptures. These are His words, His Spirit-breathed disclosures, not mine. You may believe you are representing a more “noble” perspective of God, but you are not accommodating the clear words of Scripture.
I beseech Your Holiness to stay out of politics and show your intelligence by not buying into this Leftist hoax.
Over the weekend, additional texts came to mind which dispute your claim that John is teaching God never manages believers’ or unbelievers’ hearts toward sin. Notice:
Is. 63:17a
Why, O Lord, dost Thou cause us to stray from Thy ways, And harden our hearts from fearing Thee?
(”causes” straying in the chosen people)
Habakkuk 1:6-11
For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans…then they will sweep through like the wind and pass on. But they will be held guilty, they whose strength is their god.
(”raises and directs” pagans to do exactly as God plans)
Notice, as Vincent Cheung argues, one can be maneuvered to sin and still held guilty. He asks, “Where did we get the idea that one must be a completely independent being, choosing by our own unaffected wills to sin, BEFORE we can be held guilty?” Answer: Purely from our humanistic philosophical frameworks, NOT the Scriptures. God can, and does, whatever He wishes and He has said He is not guilty and we are. So, will we impugn God? May it never be. So, if that bothers us, I suggest we get over it, if we can.
Is 46:9-11
…For I am God, and there is no other (god, controlling beings, ultimate powers); I am God, and there is no One like Me, declaring (pronouncing, determining, announcing, controlling) the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not (yet) been done, saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure’…Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.”
This helps clarify why…
Prov. 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps
Prov. 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
Prov. 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
I am aware that there are dozens and dozens of passages which say, “Choose, behave, obey, follow, etc.” No argument there. But, those passages are subsumed by the stronger and more dominant perspective that ultimately God is the One doing the directing. That is the Gospel we must present…if we are to present the full counsel of God.
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