I am not sure we are communicating here. You said there is a future with a single outcome that God knows. When I say that it is “determined”, I simply mean this “single outcome” is the ONLY outcome that will occur. That single outcome (which you agree God knows), by definition, makes it impossible for any other outcome to occur. I am not speaking hypothetically, but realistically. If no other outcome can occur, then the “free agents” are actually just marching their way to (and through) that single outcome (which God knows). Irrespective of what the agents “feel” or “think” or “decide”, they are moving toward the outcome that God knows about. This is not contradictory; it is observant and logical and Biblical.
Whether time is being manufactured as it is presented to us or whether time is some kind of “thing” God created in one moment, is not really important. I suspect we may never know this because it affects nothing.
But, what is clear is that there is no “infinity”, if by this you mean “never beginning and never ending”. The universe, as big as it might be, is finite. God is the only infinite being in existence. Otherwise, we have a universe that is equal to God and we know that Creation Ex Nihilo is true. I don’t find anything infinite in the Scriptures (Job, et al). He is definitely larger/longer lived than it all and if He is infinite, the universe is infinity minus something. Thus, because all dimensions are also created, they too are less than infinite, irrespective of Hugh Ross’ contentions. To some extent, this means even “heaven” is a created place and is not infinite.
You may wish to argue this from a theoretical (or mathematical/scientific standpoint), but I believe the Scriptural perspective trumps these.
“You said there is a future with a single outcome that God knows. When I say that it is “determined”, I simply mean this “single outcome” is the ONLY outcome that will occur. That single outcome (which you agree God knows), by definition, makes it impossible for any other outcome to occur.”
No, it doesn’t. At any point in time, there are various possible futures. The fact that, at the end of time, you can look back and see that only one path was chosen, does not mean that those other possibilities could not have occurred. They could have, they just did not.
I think you’re still stuck thinking of time as a human perceives it, which is understandable, but it is causing you to make incorrect assumptions, and those assumptions lead to incorrect conclusions.
“I am not speaking hypothetically, but realistically. If no other outcome can occur, then the “free agents” are actually just marching their way to (and through) that single outcome (which God knows).”
You’re getting hung up on “no other outcome can occur”. Of course it can. Since you are using future tense, then you are talking from a human perspective, and the future is unknown. If you want to talk about God’s perspective, you have to stop using those human-centered terms and start trying to imagine what it must be like for God to look at time.
Perhaps it would help to think of God, not outside of time, but sitting at the end of the universe, looking back. From that perspective, He doesn’t know what will occur, but only what has occurred. It would be no different than you looking in your memories back at your own past. Just because you know what choices you made and what occurred, doesn’t mean you were forced to make those choices. You only see those results of your choices in retrospect. They didn’t become a fixed reality until you made them.
“Irrespective of what the agents “feel” or “think” or “decide”, they are moving toward the outcome that God knows about. This is not contradictory; it is observant and logical and Biblical.”
Yes, they are moving towards that outcome, but only because that is what they actually end up deciding to do. That doesn’t make their choices or free will illusory. If they were to decide to do things differently, then God would have seen a different future.
“Whether time is being manufactured as it is presented to us or whether time is some kind of “thing” God created in one moment, is not really important. I suspect we may never know this because it affects nothing.”
Oh but it is important, and it does have an impact on the question. If time doesn’t exist until we “need” it, then God could not perceive it until he manufactured it. However, that makes no sense at all. For to use a word like “until” presupposes that God is bound by time, which can’t be true.
It’s difficult to be certain of the true nature of time because we are so limited in our perception of it. However, we do have one mathematical description of it that we have derived without resort to human biases. That model allows us to make testable predictions which we have verified through experiment. So the model, even if it is not a complete description of time, must be at least a partially accurate approximation of the nature of time, and until we develop a better model, its only logical for us to use that one when trying to talk about time.
“But, what is clear is that there is no “infinity”, if by this you mean “never beginning and never ending”. The universe, as big as it might be, is finite.”
Sure, the universe may be finite, but that doesn’t mean that there are no infinites. Especially if we are talking about dimensions, because dimensions are not contained within the universe. Rather, the universe is something that exists with the dimensions, which, by definition, are infinite. All the higher mathematics necessary to describe the universe and what is in it are riddled with infinites. For example, if we want to describe a field, such as an electromagnetic field, or a gravitational field, its boundaries are always infinite. That’s the nature of a field, it radiates in all directions to infinity (unless it is absorbed, deflected, etc by some intervening thing). If it didn’t, then it would not be a field, but something else entirely.
“God is the only infinite being in existence. Otherwise, we have a universe that is equal to God...”
Whoa, hold your horses there. “Infinite” is descriptor of magnitude, not a descriptor of nature. So if a thing has some infinite quality, it does not automatically become of equal nature to God. Yes, God must have infinite qualities, and surely more of them than anything else in existence. However, a field with an infinite extent does not become God, it’s still just a field. The fact that it possesses a property that has a magnitude equal to the magnitude of properties God must have does nothing to change the nature of the field.
“I don’t find anything infinite in the Scriptures (Job, et al).”
Well, the Bible is not a physics or mathematics textbook, so that isn’t surprising.
“Thus, because all dimensions are also created, they too are less than infinite, irrespective of Hugh Ross’ contentions.”
Here you are making another mistake, because you are lessening God. Unintentionally, I’m sure, but that is what you are doing. You are saying “God could not make something of an infinite magnitude”, thereby placing a limit on what God can do. In your zeal to assign the quality of “infinite” to God alone, you have reduced God to something finite!
“You may wish to argue this from a theoretical (or mathematical/scientific standpoint), but I believe the Scriptural perspective trumps these.”
Well, your “Scriptural perspective” is actually a subjective interpretation of Scripture, is it not? You believe that Scripture is portraying matters in a certain way, and if science and math disagree, you favor your scriptural interpretation. However, I would say that if you cannot reconcile your interpretation with the reality that we observe and analyze with science, then it may be a sign that the interpretation is incorrect, for science describes God’s creation, and therefore, a different description of it (the Biblical one) should not be in disagreement (unless the scientific description is incorrect).
There is only one creation that both are describing, after all. As for mathematics, that is not really a language we invented, but one that we have discovered. If an alien race existed on another planet, they might have different symbols for numbers and operations, they might use a different decimal system, but they would observe the same mathematical ratios and formulas describing the universe that we do. That “universal mathematics” was authored by God himself, so it absolutely should be reconcilable with the Scriptural descriptions.