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Fathers and Daughters – Is This a Missing Key to Modesty Today?
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 03-25-15 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 03/26/2015 8:25:50 AM PDT by Salvation

Fathers and Daughters – Is This a Missing Key to Modesty Today?

By: Msgr. Charles Pope

http://blog.adw.org/wp-content/uploads/modesty.jpg

We often speak today of the terrible toll that fatherless homes have on young boys. And this is true. Without a reasonably good (even though not sinless) model of manhood and responsibility, many boys lose their way. Fathers also play a large role in disciplining boys, especially as they grow older and become  stronger than their mothers.

But missing fathers also bring forth terrible effects on many girls. Women, even young girls, certainly do seek and desire the love and appreciation of men and have a desire to be thought of as precious, beautiful, and lovable. Ideally a father is able to model for his daughter that a man can appreciate and love her for her own sake, apart from merely her physical charms and “curves.”

Learning this seems critical for a young girl, who is then able to discern the difference between this and the love of other men who may desire her in a more sexual way. That they have sexual desire for her is not wrong per se, but neither is it wrong for her to know that she is lovable for her own sake. Simply loving her for her physical charms is lust. True love is loving her her for her own sake. And even if sexual attraction is part of the picture, it is only part and she can know the difference. Having recognized that a man (in the first case her father) can love her in this fuller way, she is able to insist on it and discern when a young man’s “love” is too narrow.

However, when a young girl does not learn this from her father, she likely still craves the approval of men. But not having learned from her father how to discern the attention of men and not having experienced that she is lovable for her own sake beyond mere physical beauty, she will often confuse the attention that is lust with the love and approval she really seeks.

While I am no professional sociologist, it seems to me that there is a rather strong correlation between the decline of fathers in the home and the rise of immodesty among women. As a man, I find this rise odd and ponder why immodesty is so widespread among women. Why do so many women like to wear short skirts and tight clothes (which seem so uncomfortable) and walk about beaches in a state of almost complete nudity (bikinis)? Something is amiss and way out of balance.

At one level, I have come to discover (through discussions with women on the issue of modesty) that many (especially younger) women really don’t have any idea the effect that they have on men. I have confirmed this in discussion with our Sunday school teenagers. In discussions moderated by women, many young girls just haven’t figured it all out yet. When asked, “Why do you dress that (provocative) way?” they often say, “I don’t know, it’s … like … y’know … comfortable??? … It’s like … cool???”

While some of them may be fibbing, and really do know why, I don’t doubt that, to some degree, there is an innocence about what they do that needs to be schooled. In the past, fathers could help in this regard. Some years ago I remember a remarkable little passage by John Eldridge, in the Book, Wild at Heart that decoded something I have noticed even in the youngest girls:

And finally, every woman wants to have a beauty to unveil. Not to conjure, but to unveil. Most women feel the pressure to be beautiful from very young, but that is not what I speak of. There is also a deep desire to simply and truly be the beauty, and be delighted in. Most little girls will remember playing dress up, or wedding day, or twirling skirts, those flowing dresses that were perfect for spinning around in. She’ll put her pretty dress on, come into the living room and twirl. What she longs for is to capture her daddy’s delight. My wife remembers standing on top of the coffee table as a girl of five or six, and singing her heart out. Do you see me? asks the heart of every girl. And are you captivated by what you see? (Kindle edition Loc 367-83)

Perhaps it is this innocence that has gone somehow wrong, has been untutored, causing some young girls to dress immodestly. And many of them bring that into adulthood.

But even if their intentions are innocent, it is not wrong to teach girls that not everyone views their display so innocently and further that some boys/men are deeply troubled by the temptation it brings, especially as these girls get a bit older.

There is surely a time to provoke and celebrate a sexual appeal and joy: in the marriage bed. But outside this context, women ought to be seen more richly as wives, mothers, sisters, daughters, teachers, and scientists, indeed as whole persons with interests, needs, concerns, and richly varied lives. Fathers can have a critical role in teaching this to both their sons and their daughters.

In the past when I saw an immodestly attired young woman I would ask, “Where is her mother?” Increasingly I also ask, “Where is her father?” She doesn’t seem to understand men. She wants the attention of men but in a way that presses all the wrong buttons. Maybe she’s never considered that a man can and should love her for her own sake, beyond her physical attributes. Maybe she never had the chance to twirl her skirts before a father who delighted in her but without sexual motives, who could tell her she was beautiful and wonderful without the desire to exploit. Maybe she’s still craving this delight but is now twirling her skirts and revealing her beauty to men who cannot, or will not, admire her with such pure motives. And maybe she can’t tell the difference between lust (exploitative desire) and love (desire of her for her own sake) because she never had a father, a good father, there to model the difference.

Anyway, I know women are complicated and that I’m probably going to get killed by both women and men for this post. But before you lay me out, consider for your comment why you think immodesty is so widespread in our culture? I would appreciate it if we could avoid the “men are pigs”, or “these young girls dress like sluts” types of comments. I’m looking for understanding more than venting. I know we all have strong opinions about this topic and that some don’t believe there is in fact any immodesty at all (even in a tiny bikini (a view I think that requires real denial or serious blindness). But the point I’d like to ponder is why.

I have written more on the questions of modesty here:

  1. Modesty is Reverence for Mystery
  2. Modesty and Men
  3. A School Finally Cracks Down


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: boys; catholic; daughter; daughters; daughtersandfathers; family; father; fathers; fathersanddaughters; females; feminism; girls; innocence; manhood; marriage; men; modesty; moralabsolutes; parents; sex; sexualdesire; teens; virtues; women
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To: Salvation

Mine had three-quarter length sleeves and a high neckline. Good article, Salvation.


41 posted on 03/26/2015 11:35:11 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Salvation

They can marry their daughters in New Jersey...or sons i guess


42 posted on 03/26/2015 11:38:29 AM PDT by GeronL (Shrub Scouts, root them out and make them whine)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

We did the same thing with our daughter. She was a summer child. She was either going to be the youngest in her class or one of the oldest. Unless you really think your child is some kind of prodigy (and too many parents think their child is), why would a parent place that kind of pressure on a child?

We consider it one of the best decisions we ever made.


43 posted on 03/26/2015 11:38:51 AM PDT by skinndogNN
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To: RnMomof7

Maybe she will come back to other traditions, from childhood, eventually, too


44 posted on 03/26/2015 11:40:23 AM PDT by LYDIAONTARIO
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To: NorthMountain

Case in point, an uncle of mine.

He married a woman who had been divorced, and had a daughter by the prior marriage. Together they had another daughter and a son.

My uncle was given carte blanche to discipline the boy, and the turned out to be one of the nicest, most decent, honorable, educated professional men you’d ever want to meet.

His wife would not let him lift a little finger where the girls were concerned. “They are MY responsibility, and I will discipline them!” He was really not permitted to be involved in that aspect at all.

Of course both of the girls were complete train wrecks. Many serious issues growing up, and one of them died quite young.

For some reason women these days tend to get claws-out defensive about their daughters, which is not good.


45 posted on 03/26/2015 11:41:59 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: JoeFromSidney

I spent two summers, many years ago, working in a beachfront store.

What has been seen, cannot be unseen.


46 posted on 03/26/2015 11:50:23 AM PDT by NorthMountain ("The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things")
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To: LYDIAONTARIO
I do not know... she has 2 middle school children that will tell you "we don't go to church"

We have a family Christmas tradition where we sing "Happy Birthday" to Baby Jesus...every time we do it I wonder if they even know who Jesus is :(

47 posted on 03/26/2015 11:57:15 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: verga
Do you remember the billboard from several years ago:
Very nice wedding, don't forget to invite me to the marriage.
~God~

No ...I do not.. but whoever paid for it deserves a large round of applause

Marriage is a covenant between a man. a woman and God.. a threesome that is meant to be "until death do us part

48 posted on 03/26/2015 12:01:09 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Marriage is a covenant between a man. a woman and God.. a threesome that is meant to be "until death do us part

DING DING DING, we have a winner no more calls please, we have a winner.

Post of the day.It was told my wife and I during pre Cana and at the wedding.

49 posted on 03/26/2015 12:11:32 PM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: Salvation

My wife rules the roost - only because when I try to exercise my God given responsibilities, I get yelled at and told I’m wrong. So, I say a prayer, generally not fight about, and talk to my children quietly about whatever the issue of the moment for her is at that time.

I’ve talked to my pastor, and that seems to be the right course of action for now. Pray


50 posted on 03/26/2015 12:43:21 PM PDT by ro_dreaming (Chesterton, 'Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. ItÂ’s been found hard and not tried')
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To: Salvation

I don’t know if this is a Catholic Caucus or not but as a Protestant, I agree with the premise. I have long maintained that the best of judge of a daughter’s attire and its modesty is the father. Mothers might get carried away by the fashion style but Dads know how young men would perceive the attire. After all, they were once young men themselves.


51 posted on 03/26/2015 1:46:57 PM PDT by CommerceComet (Ignore the GOP-e. Cruz to victory in 2016.)
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To: driftless2

LOL...I had that happen. 200 yards of open sand to get to the water. Saunter, walk, jog, RUN, throw down towel to stand on and cool feet.

Never occured to me to just go back to the car and get my sandals.


52 posted on 03/26/2015 2:02:17 PM PDT by Sergio (An object at rest cannot be stopped! - The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

I think you are wise to hold her back. I had to do that with one of my sons in third grade. Would have been much better if done earlier.


53 posted on 03/26/2015 3:24:12 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: skinndogNN

I second your post.


54 posted on 03/26/2015 3:27:08 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NorthMountain

God sees everything anyway.


55 posted on 03/26/2015 3:28:06 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

I was raised like that, as well.


56 posted on 03/26/2015 3:50:14 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Let's put the ship of state on Cruz Control with Ted Cruz.)
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To: Salvation
In the past, fathers could help in this regard.

Such as by saying, "If you go out of the house dressed like that, I'll break your leg!" or words to that effect. I remember even our college professors in the 60s saying things like, "Put your legs togther, girl!" when girls would come to early class and sprawl out in their seats.

57 posted on 03/30/2015 12:01:11 PM PDT by Albion Wilde (The greatest danger facing our world: the marriage of militant Islam with nuclear weapons.-Netanyahu)
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To: defconw
When I got married 8 years ago. I had a hard time finding a dress that had sleeves and a neckline.

Congratulations on your marriage!

I was so delighted by Catherine Middleton's modest wedding gown. Great role model.

58 posted on 03/30/2015 12:02:50 PM PDT by Albion Wilde (The greatest danger facing our world: the marriage of militant Islam with nuclear weapons.-Netanyahu)
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To: LYDIAONTARIO; RnMomof7
They may as well just go to the justice of the peace and then do a big reception. Why bother using church if it’s just a decoration?

The fault is the churches'. Most RCCs do a good job of requiring pre-Cana or premarital instruction, but the Protestants have really dropped the ball on this issue. Churches should hesitate or even refuse to marry a couple unless they show an understanding and acceptance of the Christian values of matrimony.

59 posted on 03/30/2015 12:11:52 PM PDT by Albion Wilde (The greatest danger facing our world: the marriage of militant Islam with nuclear weapons.-Netanyahu)
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To: RnMomof7
when she came home to get married my task was to find a church that would marry them ..That was a difficult task.. of course no Rc church would..no Evangelical church I knew would, my pastor would not...I had to do some real digging

Just read your next post. So it seems the pastors in your area are trying to do the right thing!

Hope your daughter's wedding not only brings her and you lasting happiness, but also brings the couple back to the fold. Especially when they have children.

60 posted on 03/30/2015 12:15:02 PM PDT by Albion Wilde (The greatest danger facing our world: the marriage of militant Islam with nuclear weapons.-Netanyahu)
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