Posted on 03/19/2015 6:54:07 AM PDT by pgyanke
There has been an less-than-productive discussion on this thread regarding the last words of Christ on the Cross. It could be because it started with the suggestion--right in the title--that Catholics don't understand Jesus. Not a great way to initiate dialogue and ecumenism.
I would like to take a different approach here. I would like to hear my Protestant brethren explain these words of Christ from the Cross:
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
What does it mean? Why did He say it?
Indeed the answer is there as Jesus told his disciples in Luke 24. Also in Isaiah 53.
Why did Jesus utter these words? As has been well-pointed out on this thread, He is quoting Scripture... specifically, Psalm 22. He had very little breath available to Him and He had something to teach. As the author and embodiment of Scripture, these words were written prophetically (they foresaw Him on the Cross) and preparationally (they are unique in all of Scripture so He can't be misunderstood as to His citation). The opening passages of the Psalm paint a bleak picture of Him hanging on the Cross. One could easily focus on this part and empathize with His despair. But again, Christ is teaching, not lamenting. Keep reading...
Psalm 22:22 I will tell of your name to my brothers;The rest of the Psalm is glorious. It speaks of His triumph. Jesus was helping his disciples look beyond the affliction of the Cross because if they recalled the full Psalm, they will remember that it ends in triumph.
in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted,
and he has not hidden his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him.
When God looked at Jesus on the Cross... what did He see? Did He see our sin and turn away? Consider that we are sinful people and God sent His only Son to die for our sins when we were at our worst. He does not turn from us, we turn from Him. He doesn't abandon us, He saves us. When God looked upon Jesus on the Cross, He saw an obedient Son doing His Will and He loved Him.
As Catholics, we see even more... when you see Christ on the Cross, you are seeing the Priest offering the sacrifice of His Own Body, the sacrificial Lamb, and the Bridegroom of the Church. It is the Marriage Feast of the Lamb where Heaven and Earth are rejoined in the family bond of the New Covenant. What was begun at the Last Supper (and not ended as one cup remained from which He partook on the Cross) was played out in reality in His Own Flesh on the Cross. On the Cross, He is offering Mass. His ejaculation of Psalm 22 could be seen as His Homily. It is finished with the final cup (the hyssop) and His Death.
The second reason for this thread is to point out the disunity that the Sola Scriptura perspective brings. Without the Catholic Church as a foil, you flounder for meaning. It's easy to point to the Church and tell Her where you disagree. It isn't so easy to agree with one another in your own exegesis. Read this thread and you will see bafflement, guesses, and conjecture. You won't read teaching from the Protestant perspective that is authoritative and instructive for all.
This isn't meant to be a snark but instructive as to why the Church is here and how She has stood the test of time.
All of Christ days, hours, seconds, on earth He always knew the presence of GOD. Taking our sins on the cross GOD had too look away. During that time Christ was overcoming and experiencing something He had never known before which was separation from GOD The Father. Thus His Words. Even at that point it was within His power to come off the cross.
Through Christ obedience and being The Perfect Lamb offered for sin without blemish all righteousness was fulfilled and completed. The sacrificial Lamb was offered and accepted by GOD and man reconciled to GOD through The Lamb.
Reading the Passover brings the meaning to The Blood Covenant of Christ to light.
The Passover Feast was celebrated long after Exodus as a remembrance to GOD's saving Israel. Just as The Lords Superis observed today as reflection and remembrance to Christ saving us from our sins her bore for us as The Lamb Of GOD on the cross.
You are right there isn't a difference. Which leads me to 'why' this was posted in the first place as a vanity thread. Some in the past have posted such vanity threads to 'find' the straw man they have been looking for all these years:)
Sorry, that is a snark, and most of the answers were consistent. Some of the difference come from different understandings of the Apostles' Creed. Plus, there are multiple layers to what God is trying to point out with Psalm 22. Some of the differences in response are due to people pointing out the different layers.
I wonder if I ask a random group of Catholics the same question if I would get the exact same answer. Yes, I know there is the party line, but not everyone knows it.
What is consistent with all of the response is the lack of this sacrifice being performed over and over in a Mass. Just as "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?" points us to Psalm 22 and the Suffering Savior, so do the words, "This is My body" points us back to the cross. Both are symbols represent something larger.
Really?
"Since God is sinless and can not tolerate sin, at that moment, God had to remove his presence from Jesus." - taxcontrol, post #8.
"In the spiritual realm God turned his head from his son as he bore the sins of humanity." - winodog, post #10.
"God turned His back when Jesus was on the cross because He could not look upon sin, even-or perhaps especially-in His own Son. Just as Jesus loudly lamented, God the Father had indeed forsaken Him." - .45 Long Colt, post #16.
"Except that Jesus IS God." - AppyPappy, post #21.
"It’s a good question, the answer to which we may never know." - TheZMan, post #24.
"At that moment. God turned His Face from Christ, because Christ became SIN (our sin from Eve’s tempation to the last sin ever committed by the last born human still in the future). He cannot look upon sin, so Christ being the 2nd of the Trinity could feel this separation from His Father. That pain must have been even more unbearable than the physical torment of crucifixion." - Roman_War_Criminal, post #29.
"To claim to understand the full impact or meaning of that statement would be akin to claiming full understanding of the hypostatic union." - CynicalBear, post #35.
Sorry, that is a snark, and most of the answers were consistent.
Many were consistent with each other but many were not. And almost all Protestants took the approach that God saw sin on the Cross, not an obedient Son. What do you think?
I wonder if I ask a random group of Catholics the same question if I would get the exact same answer.
Read back through the thread and I think you can pick out the Catholics.
LOL! You're actually asserting that the unsourced post #42, which appears to be nothing more than your own private interpretation and conjecture, stands as the definitive, authoritative, and instructive for all "Catholic perspective" on Jesus' words.
Absolute nonsense. The presumption made by the Catholic Church is just that, presumption. Like I said, anyone who purports to understand the full meaning of those words is akin to claiming to understand the full meaning of the hypostatic union. The audacity of the Catholic Church is astounding.
Mark 9:34 And sitting down, he called the twelve, and saith to them: If any man desire to be first, he shall be the last of all, and the minister of all. 35 And taking a child, he set him in the midst of them. Whom when he had embraced, he saith to them: 36 Whosoever shall receive one such child as this in my name, receiveth me. And whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. 37 John answered him, saying: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, who followeth not us, and we forbade him. 38 But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name, and can soon speak ill of me. 39 For he that is not against you, is for you.
No one who professes the Name of Christ is my enemy. May God bless you.
Not really. As you titled this thread on the opening lines of Psalm 22 and not the entire psalm and also the associated linking prophecies and fulfillment. You do well fleshing that out in a later post but not at the beginning. So the original post lacks what most Roman Catholic doctrine lacks...Biblical exegesis.
I will also note your own CCC allows for differing views on a multitude of faith issues. This would be one as long as a Catholic does not deny the full Deity of Christ.
The other flaw with this approach, vanity thread, is that it is open to Mormons, JWs, Oneness Pentecostals and other such Arian or tritheism heresies. So yes you are going to get different answers as none of those groups are in the (little "o") orthodox Christian tradition.
Our Savior and High Priest was on the cross (the altar) that day. One time for all.
This isn't meant to be a snark but instructive as to why the Church is here and how She has stood the test of time.
Truly? I still await three responses to posts I made to you on the other thread you called 'unproductive.' Perhaps take some of that instruction there to respond. Also, the church is not a she, the Church is the Body of Christ with Him as the Head and we as the members. And it's God's Truth that stands the test of time as not one of His words will be changed or come back empty. And how to we measure our actions and practices against God's Truth? Seek His Words and counsel. Where do we find those? Not in a catechism mixed with words of men.
Exactly. If one of us said, "When in the course of human events", people would take it as an allusion to the Declaration of Independence. If we said that in the context of a government abuse or usurpation, it would be taken to have a clear and unambiguous meaning. Quoting the first line of Psalm 22 is no different.
It is true Catholic perspective. However, there is a great deal of theology behind it that I have condensed here. There are plenty of such summaries available on the web if you don't want to take my word. Simply Google "My God My God why have you forsaken me Catholic" and you will get links to Catholic answers. Be aware, though, that some do write from their own perspective and not from the Church. It shouldn't be hard to know which ones are authoritative by their citations. God bless.
Audacity isn't in short supply.
Post #3, #9, #12, #17, #18, #20, #28, #29, #41.
The differences you point out are issues with understanding the nature of the Trinity. If anyone thinks they have this completely figured out, they are most likely wrong. The Early Church fathers had difficulty with it, and were not always consistent, other than that there is One God in Three Persons. Deviation from that point is heresy to the Christian faith.
The big questions is: are the difference cited enough to change the message of the Bible, which are then nature of God, man's relation to God, and how one must be reconciled to God? If it is, then we as Christian need to under how to correct the error. If not, then it may be open for debate.
Grace and Peace,
K51
Agreed! Thank you for noticing. So many here see the Church as some immovable behemoth that is stuck in Her ways. That is not so. She is constantly learning and teaching. That being said, there is very strong teaching on this subject that is instructive and authoritative.
I still await three responses to posts I made to you on the other thread you called 'unproductive.'
It was unproductive. If you notice, I am one person and I am responding to multiple posters. I am not baited by every challenge and I can't possibly answer every post. I answer where I think there is a reason to answer that is edifying for me and for the conversation.
Also, the church is not a she, the Church is the Body of Christ with Him as the Head and we as the members.
It's a personal thing for me to refer to the Church as "She". One can ask, "how is the Church Christ's Body?" The answer is found in the model of Scripture (Genesis to Revelation opens and ends with Marriage)... the Church is the Bride of Christ and they are joined in one Flesh through the Marriage Feast of the Lamb (Eph 5:25-27, 2 Cor 11:2, Rev 19:7-9, Rev 21:9). As Jesus is male, I see the Church as female. Again, personal thing.
#16 also references Psalm 22.
Thanks. I’m sure I missed others as well. No slight intended.
In your rebuttal, you provided the very reason that Jesus was necessary. Without Jesus, there is no forgiveness of sin. Without Jesus, no sinner could ever enter God’s presence.
You see, a perfect God provides justice. And perfect justice requires atonement or payment for sin. Once a person’s sins are paid, they can be forgiven. That is what Jesus did. He paid the price for our sins, thus our sins CAN be forgiven. They are not automatically forgiven. Forgiveness requires the individual repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and savior. It is a grace that has not been earned nor could ever be earned.
When we stand before God (perfection) on Judgement Day, all of our sins will be covered / paid for by Jesus and we will therefore be sinless before God, who will then welcome us into heaven. In other words, there is no need for perfection (purgatory) as Jesus makes us perfect.
Otherwise, the thief would not have been able to enter paradise “this day”. In effect, belief in the catholic teaching of purgatory calls Jesus a lair because it says that the catholic teaching of purgatory supersedes Jesus’s forgiveness of sins.
Yet we should accept the presumption that the Catholic Church knows the mind of God. What hubris. The leadership in the Catholic Church doesn’t even qualify per Paul to be in any type of leadership position in the New Testament ekklesia. Yet Catholics listen to unqualified fallible men.
I'm looking forward to reading your discussion.
I'm not sure why you think that would be a problem.
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