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Faith Alone v. Forgiving Trespasses: How the Lord's Prayer Contradicts the Reformation
Catholic Defense ^ | February 25, 2015

Posted on 02/25/2015 11:50:17 AM PST by NYer

Lines from the Lord's Prayer, in various languages.
From the Eucharist Door at the Glory Facade of the Sagrada Família in Barcelona, Spain.

It's Lent in Rome. That means it's time for one of the great Roman traditions: station churches. Each morning, English-speaking pilgrims walk to a different church for Mass. This morning, on the way to St. Anastasia's, I was once again struck by a line in the Our Father: “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” That's a hard thing to pray, It doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. Even the Catechism seems shocked by it:

This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, "And forgive us our trespasses," it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord's Prayer, since Christ's sacrifice is "that sins may be forgiven." But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word "as."
Upon arriving at Mass, I discovered that the Gospel for the day was Matthew 6:7-15, in which Christ introduces this prayer. That seemed too serendipitous to simply be a coincidence. Then Archbishop Di Noia, O.P., got up to preach the homily, and it was all about how to understand this particular petition. So here goes: I think that the Lord's Prayer is flatly inconsistent with sola fide, the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone. Here's why.

In this line of the Lord's Prayer, Jesus seems to be explicitly conditioning our forgiveness on our forgiving. Indeed, it's hard to read “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” any other way. What's more, after introducing the prayer, Jesus focuses on this line, in particular. Here's how He explains it (Matthew 6:14-15):
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
So to be forgiven, you must forgive. If you do, you'll be forgiven. If you don't, you won't be. It's as simple as that.

So Christ has now told us three times that our being forgiven is conditioned upon our forgiving, using the most explicit of language. How does Luther respond to this? “God forgives freely and without condition, out of pure grace.” And what is Calvin's response? “The forgiveness, which we ask that God would give us, does not depend on the forgiveness which we grant to others.”

Their theology forces them to deny Christ's plain words, since admitting them would concede that we need something more than faith alone: we also need to forgive our neighbors. They've painted themselves into a corner, theologically. To get out of it, they change this part of the Our Father into either a way that we can know that we're saved (Luther's approach: that God “set this up for our confirmation and assurance for a sign alongside of the promise which accords with this prayer”) or a non-binding moral exhortation (Calvin's: “to remind us of the feelings which we ought to cherish towards brethren, when we desire to be reconciled to God”).

Modern Protestants tend to do the same thing with these verses, and countless other passages in which Christ or the New Testament authors teach us about something besides faith that's necessary for salvation. We see this particularly in regards to the Biblical teaching on the saving role of Baptism (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21) and works (Matthew 25:31-46; Romans 2:6-8; James 2). There are three common tactics employed:

  1. Reverse the causality. If a passage says that you must do X in order to be saved, claim that it really means that if you're saved, you'll just naturally do X. Thus, X is important for showing that you're saved, but it doesn't actually do anything, and certainly isn't necessary for salvation (even if the Bible says otherwise: Mark 16:16).
  2. No True Scotsman. If Scripture says that someone believed and then lost their salvation (like Simon the Magician in Acts 8, or the heretics mentioned in 2 Peter 2), say that they must not have ever actually believed (even if the Bible says the opposite: Acts 8:13, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22).
  3. Spiritualize the passage into oblivion. If the Bible says that Baptism is necessary for salvation, argue that this is just a “spiritual” Baptism that means nothing more than believing. And if you need to get around the need to be “born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) spiritualize this, too, to get rid of the need for water. Reduce everything to a symbol, or a metaphor for faith.

In fairness to both the Reformers and to modern Protestants, they want to avoid any notion that we can earn God's forgiveness or our salvation. This doesn't justify denying or distorting Christ's words, but it's a holy impulse. And in fact, it was the theme of Abp. Di Noia's homily this morning. Grace is a gift, and what's more, grace is what enables us to forgive others. This point is key, because it explains why Christ isn't teaching something like Pelagianism.

God freely pours out His graces upon us, which bring about both (a) our forgiveness, and (b) our ability to forgive others. But we can choose to accept that grace and act upon it, or to reject it. And that decision has eternal consequences. Such an understanding is harmonious with Christ's actual words, while avoiding any idea that we possess the power to earn our salvation.

So both Catholics and Protestants reject Pelagianism, but there's a critical difference. Catholics believe that grace enables us to do good works, whereas Protestants tend to believe that grace causes us to do good works. To see why it matters, consider the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:21-35. In this parable, we see three things happen:

  1. A debtor is forgiven an enormous debt of ten thousand talents (Mt. 18:25-27). Solely through the grace of the Master (clearly representing God), this man is forgiven his debts (sins). He is in a state of grace.
  2. This debtor refuses to forgive his neighbor of a small debt of 100 denarii (Mt. 18:28-30). The fact that he's been forgiven should enable the debtor to be forgiving: in being forgiven, he's received the equivalent of 60,000,000 denarii, and he's certainly seen a moral model to follow. But he turns away from the model laid out by the Master, and refuses to forgive his neighbor.
  3. This debtor is unforgiven by his Master (Mt. 18:32-35). The kicker comes at the very end: “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
Now, consider all of the Protestant work-arounds discussed above. To deny that this debtor was ever really forgiven would be an insult to the Master and in contradiction to the text. To say that, if we're forgiven, we'll just naturally forgive is equally a contradiction: this debtor is forgiven, and doesn't. To treat the need to forgive the other debtor as a non-binding moral exhortation would have been a fatal error. 

This parable gets to the heart of the issue. The Master's forgiveness is freely given, and cannot be earned. But that doesn't mean it's given unconditionally or irrevocably. Quite the contrary: Christ shows us in this parable that it can be repealed, and tells us why: if we refuse to forgive, we will not be forgiven. It turns out, the Lord's Prayer actually means what it says.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: bumpusadsummum; calvin; catholic; faithalone; forgiveness; forgivingtrespasses; luther; ourfather; paternoster; prayer; solafide; thelordsprayer; theourfather
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To: Grateful2God
Thank you for the kind words, but you made me smile again. We don't go around describing ourselves as puke faced enlisted men. Liberals probably do, but I am referring back to an officers handbook from MANY, MANY, MANY years ago, that I saw in NCO leadership school in the 70s. They did not use those words. The exact words they used to describe enlisted people were "enlisted men are sly but stupid" How enlisted men can be sly and stupid at the same time, is beyond me. I doubt most officers actually believe that drivel, but some probably do. You would almost have to be a veteran to understand where we are coming from. There is always some distrust and animosity between officers and enlisted, but then again, I have seen the same thing between lower enlisted and higher enlisted, and lower ranking officers, and higher, so it can run that way too. It sounds kind of like life in general doesn't it? Sorry you were not a veteran. 😄😃😀😊 Chill out, I am joking again.
161 posted on 02/25/2015 10:47:17 PM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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To: metmom

When each dies, he stands before God in particular judgement, that is, one on One between him and God. It is then that God decides whether or not one is worthy of Heaven, as with a martyr; goes to Purgatory, then to Heaven, or, sadly to hell. This is based on the Judgement and Mercy of God. For the part about the book, check out the rest of the post. At the end of the world will be the general judgement and the Resurrection of the Dead.


162 posted on 02/25/2015 10:50:22 PM PST by Grateful2God (Oh dear Jesus, Oh merciful Jesus, Oh Jesus, son of Mary, have mercy on me. Amen.)
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To: metmom
But you can't STAY saved any more than you can become saved.

Welcome to Confession.

163 posted on 02/25/2015 10:55:25 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: metmom
But you can't STAY saved any more than you can become saved.

Welcome to Confession.

164 posted on 02/25/2015 10:56:50 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke

“1) This isn’t my thread.

2) If I have sinned against the Word of God... you have some mighty hubris.”

The thread post speaks for it’s ridiculous self. It’s your excuse making that is the trespass.

Did you not say: “This thread isn’t trashing anybody but exploring matters of faith.“

That statement is incredibly ironic, given the subject of the thread is how Protestants inherently contradict the Lords Prayer - claiming the act of being a Protestant is “trespass”.

Your own statement simply compounds the irony, and the claim that its “exploration” exposes the underlying argument that there is somehow an “exploration loophole” that allows for trespass in the context of the Lords Prayer - and further allows one to claim trespass themselves when their own error is pointed out through the act of being forgiven - as instructed in the Lords Prayer.

I forgive you, even though your statements appear to show that the irony is beyond your intellectual grasp.

It summarizes the article beautifully - Catholics don’t have to obey the Lords Prayer if you are committing trespass upon Protestants. I don’t see that as a legitimate interpretation of the Lords Prayer, if one simply goes by the Word of God.


165 posted on 02/26/2015 12:07:12 AM PST by RFEngineer
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To: Grateful2God; metmom; boatbums; redleghunter
When each dies, he stands before God in particular judgement, that is, one on One between him and God. It is then that God decides whether or not one is worthy of Heaven

I disagree sir. God has already decided that there isn't one single solitary person that has ever lived, except Jesus Christ who is worthy of Heaven. I surely do not want to try and bluff my way past Him, by telling Him I am worthy of Heaven. That ain't going to cut the mustard for me. I don't want to stress and strain at life and then end up in Hell anyway. I want a little more assurance than that. Otherwise, it is eat drink and be merry. By the way, when I was a catholic, the priests told is that there was a place called Limbo. I have not heard anyone say anything about the place.

Anyway, agree, or disagree, but when Gabriel blows his horn, we REALLY will know for sure, won't we?

166 posted on 02/26/2015 12:47:55 AM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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To: Mark17; Grateful2God; metmom; boatbums; redleghunter
"When each dies, he stands before God in particular judgement, that is, one on One between him and God. It is then that God decides whether or not one is worthy of Heaven"

When John was "in the Spirit" he saw Jesus in all of His glory and yet this closest of apostles wrote..."when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead".

Which is probably a fair indication of how any of us might fair in the same situation!

Nothing 'not made perfect' is going to be in His presence very long.Any who imagine they will have some sort of 'worthiness' of their own to bring to that table might as well stand on the sun and expect to cast a shadow.

If I imagined I'd be sitting down for a one on one with the "All consuming fire" for a decision on wether I'm worthy enough I'd question my own view of just how awesome God really is.

167 posted on 02/26/2015 2:25:04 AM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure:for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: Salvation

Teach us HOW to pray;

not...

Teach us WHAT to pray.


168 posted on 02/26/2015 3:09:48 AM PST by Elsie
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To: mitch5501
Any who imagine they will have some sort of 'worthiness' of their own to bring to that table might as well stand on the sun and expect to cast a shadow.

LOL, Mitch. I love it. I will use that again, but go even further. One is infinitely more likely to stand on the sun and cast a shadow, than to be considered worthy by God. Ain't going to happen. Those are not the kind of odds I care to deal with. We will have to do it some other way. Got any ideas? 😄😃😃😀

169 posted on 02/26/2015 3:32:47 AM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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To: Mark17

I surely do not want to try and bluff my way past Him, by telling Him I am worthy of Heaven.


When the Son of Man comes in His glory and sits on His glorious throne (Matthew 25:31-46), we will not be telling Him anything, let alone bluffing our way past Him.

When He separates the sheep from the goats, we will at that moment each be either a sheep or a goat. To be a sheep, we need to have faith in God and follow His commandments. (Matthew 19:16-17; Mark 10:17-18)

What are His commandments?

The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17)
The Great Commandment (Matthew 22:36-40; Mark 28-34; Luke 25-28)
The New Commandment (John 13:34-35; John 15:12-17)

We shouldn’t have to stress and strain to follow these commandments if we have surrendered ourselves to His will. All we need to is to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind, and love each other as Jesus loves us, and the rest will follow.

Regarding your mention of the term Limbo. It was a speculative idea that has fallen out of use. It has never been official doctrine.


170 posted on 02/26/2015 3:34:38 AM PST by rwa265
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To: pgyanke
You're obfuscating ... It was a plain simple question.

How is the regenerating work of the HS reversed?

171 posted on 02/26/2015 4:06:57 AM PST by dartuser
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To: pgyanke; ealgeone

How does Paul talking about his suffering didn’t even compare to that of Christ have anything to do with it?


172 posted on 02/26/2015 4:22:40 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Mark17; Grateful2God
>>Grateful, this is a joke, right, because I am joking with CB.<<

It was a joke?? Now you tell me it was a joke? I ain't never.

snicker

173 posted on 02/26/2015 4:36:58 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: pgyanke; ealgeone
>>the Church Who takes Christ directly at His Word.<<

No they don't. Christ said His words were spirit. He said "the flesh propheteth nothing". The Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write the qualifications for leadership in the ekklesia. The Catholic Church didn't take that "directly at His Word". God said "don't eat the blood". Christ said there would be no "who is greatest among you". The list is long as far as the Catholic Church not taking "Christ directly at His Word".

174 posted on 02/26/2015 4:48:02 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: metmom
>>And just where on FR have you ever seen anyone advocate that now that we're saved we can commit any sin with impunity?<<

We never seem to get any documented evidence of that yet they repeatedly claim it. Curious that.

175 posted on 02/26/2015 4:56:22 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: pgyanke; metmom
>>In John 6:63, Christ is speaking of our fleshly limitations.<<

That makes no sense. The focus of the conversation was the "eating of the flesh" and the angst it caused the listeners. There is no change in direction of the conversation.

176 posted on 02/26/2015 4:59:31 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Grateful2God; metmom
>>It is then that God decides whether or not one is worthy of Heaven, as with a martyr; goes to Purgatory, then to Heaven, or, sadly to hell.<<

So when God said He would forgive our sins and never bring them to mind again He was just kidding or what.

177 posted on 02/26/2015 5:03:05 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: rwa265
Regarding your mention of the term Limbo. It was a speculative idea that has fallen out of use. It has never been official doctrine.

My parents sure believed in Limbo, and they said they both hoped to go there. They felt they were not good enough to go to Heaven, but hoped they were good enough to go to Limbo. Not one person ever keeps the commandments. Not one, so I am still left wondering how I am going to bluff my way past God, into Heaven. I think I will have to make it some other way.

178 posted on 02/26/2015 5:17:04 AM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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To: Grateful2God; Mark17
>>I thought only God was always right...<<

I thought Catholics were required to believe that the magisterium is always right.

179 posted on 02/26/2015 5:18:30 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear; Grateful2God
>>Grateful, this is a joke, right, because I am joking with CB.<<

It was a joke?? Now you tell me it was a joke? I ain't never.

snicker

You ain't never what? Made a mistake, or never knew it was a joke? I know God is the only one who is perfect, but CB, even you make a mistake now and then, so don't try to bluff your way past God into Heaven by telling Him you think you are worthy of Heaven. 😄😃😀😊

180 posted on 02/26/2015 5:34:14 AM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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