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Faith Alone v. Forgiving Trespasses: How the Lord's Prayer Contradicts the Reformation
Catholic Defense ^ | February 25, 2015

Posted on 02/25/2015 11:50:17 AM PST by NYer

Lines from the Lord's Prayer, in various languages.
From the Eucharist Door at the Glory Facade of the Sagrada Família in Barcelona, Spain.

It's Lent in Rome. That means it's time for one of the great Roman traditions: station churches. Each morning, English-speaking pilgrims walk to a different church for Mass. This morning, on the way to St. Anastasia's, I was once again struck by a line in the Our Father: “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” That's a hard thing to pray, It doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. Even the Catechism seems shocked by it:

This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, "And forgive us our trespasses," it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord's Prayer, since Christ's sacrifice is "that sins may be forgiven." But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word "as."
Upon arriving at Mass, I discovered that the Gospel for the day was Matthew 6:7-15, in which Christ introduces this prayer. That seemed too serendipitous to simply be a coincidence. Then Archbishop Di Noia, O.P., got up to preach the homily, and it was all about how to understand this particular petition. So here goes: I think that the Lord's Prayer is flatly inconsistent with sola fide, the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone. Here's why.

In this line of the Lord's Prayer, Jesus seems to be explicitly conditioning our forgiveness on our forgiving. Indeed, it's hard to read “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” any other way. What's more, after introducing the prayer, Jesus focuses on this line, in particular. Here's how He explains it (Matthew 6:14-15):
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
So to be forgiven, you must forgive. If you do, you'll be forgiven. If you don't, you won't be. It's as simple as that.

So Christ has now told us three times that our being forgiven is conditioned upon our forgiving, using the most explicit of language. How does Luther respond to this? “God forgives freely and without condition, out of pure grace.” And what is Calvin's response? “The forgiveness, which we ask that God would give us, does not depend on the forgiveness which we grant to others.”

Their theology forces them to deny Christ's plain words, since admitting them would concede that we need something more than faith alone: we also need to forgive our neighbors. They've painted themselves into a corner, theologically. To get out of it, they change this part of the Our Father into either a way that we can know that we're saved (Luther's approach: that God “set this up for our confirmation and assurance for a sign alongside of the promise which accords with this prayer”) or a non-binding moral exhortation (Calvin's: “to remind us of the feelings which we ought to cherish towards brethren, when we desire to be reconciled to God”).

Modern Protestants tend to do the same thing with these verses, and countless other passages in which Christ or the New Testament authors teach us about something besides faith that's necessary for salvation. We see this particularly in regards to the Biblical teaching on the saving role of Baptism (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21) and works (Matthew 25:31-46; Romans 2:6-8; James 2). There are three common tactics employed:

  1. Reverse the causality. If a passage says that you must do X in order to be saved, claim that it really means that if you're saved, you'll just naturally do X. Thus, X is important for showing that you're saved, but it doesn't actually do anything, and certainly isn't necessary for salvation (even if the Bible says otherwise: Mark 16:16).
  2. No True Scotsman. If Scripture says that someone believed and then lost their salvation (like Simon the Magician in Acts 8, or the heretics mentioned in 2 Peter 2), say that they must not have ever actually believed (even if the Bible says the opposite: Acts 8:13, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22).
  3. Spiritualize the passage into oblivion. If the Bible says that Baptism is necessary for salvation, argue that this is just a “spiritual” Baptism that means nothing more than believing. And if you need to get around the need to be “born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) spiritualize this, too, to get rid of the need for water. Reduce everything to a symbol, or a metaphor for faith.

In fairness to both the Reformers and to modern Protestants, they want to avoid any notion that we can earn God's forgiveness or our salvation. This doesn't justify denying or distorting Christ's words, but it's a holy impulse. And in fact, it was the theme of Abp. Di Noia's homily this morning. Grace is a gift, and what's more, grace is what enables us to forgive others. This point is key, because it explains why Christ isn't teaching something like Pelagianism.

God freely pours out His graces upon us, which bring about both (a) our forgiveness, and (b) our ability to forgive others. But we can choose to accept that grace and act upon it, or to reject it. And that decision has eternal consequences. Such an understanding is harmonious with Christ's actual words, while avoiding any idea that we possess the power to earn our salvation.

So both Catholics and Protestants reject Pelagianism, but there's a critical difference. Catholics believe that grace enables us to do good works, whereas Protestants tend to believe that grace causes us to do good works. To see why it matters, consider the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:21-35. In this parable, we see three things happen:

  1. A debtor is forgiven an enormous debt of ten thousand talents (Mt. 18:25-27). Solely through the grace of the Master (clearly representing God), this man is forgiven his debts (sins). He is in a state of grace.
  2. This debtor refuses to forgive his neighbor of a small debt of 100 denarii (Mt. 18:28-30). The fact that he's been forgiven should enable the debtor to be forgiving: in being forgiven, he's received the equivalent of 60,000,000 denarii, and he's certainly seen a moral model to follow. But he turns away from the model laid out by the Master, and refuses to forgive his neighbor.
  3. This debtor is unforgiven by his Master (Mt. 18:32-35). The kicker comes at the very end: “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
Now, consider all of the Protestant work-arounds discussed above. To deny that this debtor was ever really forgiven would be an insult to the Master and in contradiction to the text. To say that, if we're forgiven, we'll just naturally forgive is equally a contradiction: this debtor is forgiven, and doesn't. To treat the need to forgive the other debtor as a non-binding moral exhortation would have been a fatal error. 

This parable gets to the heart of the issue. The Master's forgiveness is freely given, and cannot be earned. But that doesn't mean it's given unconditionally or irrevocably. Quite the contrary: Christ shows us in this parable that it can be repealed, and tells us why: if we refuse to forgive, we will not be forgiven. It turns out, the Lord's Prayer actually means what it says.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: bumpusadsummum; calvin; catholic; faithalone; forgiveness; forgivingtrespasses; luther; ourfather; paternoster; prayer; solafide; thelordsprayer; theourfather
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To: Grateful2God
It’s still God who put the names in; He decides.

Absolutely, and He told us how that happens in His Word.

141 posted on 02/25/2015 8:47:51 PM PST by xone
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To: pgyanke
It is not once saved, always saved. It's more like... now that you're saved, stay saved.

So the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit can be reversed? That would be a direct contradiction of John 14:16-17

142 posted on 02/25/2015 8:49:05 PM PST by dartuser
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To: pgyanke
It is not once saved, always saved. It's more like... now that you're saved, stay saved.

So the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit can be reversed? That would be a direct contradiction of John 14:16-17

143 posted on 02/25/2015 8:49:46 PM PST by dartuser
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To: ealgeone
You do know what a conditional is......right?

Yes. Do you?

144 posted on 02/25/2015 8:50:06 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: dartuser
Bottom line is that the Romanists align themselves with the people who rejected Christ and did not believe.

Pot, meet kettle. We are descended from the Apostles... the ones who stayed... who trusted that Christ could (and did) give His Flesh to eat as He said He would.

145 posted on 02/25/2015 8:51:49 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: Mark17
"I was just a puke faced, know nothing enlisted man,"

Ok, off-topic, from a non-veteran. Maybe you guys talk like that amongst yourselves, but please know that no matter how disrespectfully the media and some jerky, misguided folks acted toward our veterans, there are those of us who hurt to see you describe yourself like that. You went in harm's way when you were called, and I, for one, wish to thank you! We pray every day for our Military, here on FR, and are grateful for your sacrifice. God bless you!

146 posted on 02/25/2015 9:01:52 PM PST by Grateful2God (Oh dear Jesus, Oh merciful Jesus, Oh Jesus, son of Mary, have mercy on me. Amen.)
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To: pgyanke
A careful reading of the Beatitudes shows it full of conditional language. "'If' you are poor in Spirit, the Kingdom of God is yours."

This is not a conditional statement in the Greek text at all!

147 posted on 02/25/2015 9:05:17 PM PST by dartuser
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To: pgyanke
Thank you for presenting thoughtful,intelligent responses throughout this thread. I became interested in Free Republic initially because of the open dialog of well informed Freepers. It is uplifting and a true pleasure to follow your thoughts on this subject,their content and style capture what was always the big draw to this site,thanks again!!!
148 posted on 02/25/2015 9:16:07 PM PST by saradippity
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To: boatbums
Perhaps you failed to notice that this thread is trashing "Protestants" and the Reformation

Get over yourself. It does no such thing. This thread is comparing and contrasting doctrine.

something that hardly a day goes by where your OWN group of eager-beavers point out the "evils" of anyone who isn't a Roman Catholic (and even some Catholics get trashed!) and how the Roman Catholic church is "THE one true church Jesus established" and anyone else is out of luck. Do you not read the myriad threads posted by your "side"?

I do. By are large they are discussions of doctrine.

Instead, what is coming across is the inability of modern Roman Catholics to forgive something that happened five hundred years ago and to which they STILL blame people who had nothing to do with it. Forgive and you shall be forgiven.

You have some serious hangups and fixations.

Catholic and Protestant bashing isn't a thoughtful discussion of our differences. Bashing is when it turns invective (as so very often happens from the Protestant side, by the way). Just today, we were treated to an "honest discussion" on just how evil is the Catholic Church anyway? Could it be the most evil institution in the history of man? She is called the Whore of Babylon... purely by speculation. I can't tell how many times I get to read that the Church teaches nothing but pure lies. Do tell!

Rather, what makes better sense is what this thread is. I don't see where Protestants are called evil and invective is hurled their way. I see a theological discussion and argument open to all. It's a great thing when it doesn't turn to vitriol.

149 posted on 02/25/2015 9:25:17 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: dartuser
So the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit can be reversed? That would be a direct contradiction of John 14:16-17

Would it? Which part?

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

150 posted on 02/25/2015 9:28:47 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: saradippity

Thank you for your kind encouragement.


151 posted on 02/25/2015 9:30:13 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: ealgeone; pgyanke; Mark17; CynicalBear
It is ironic that you are using your own personal interpretation of Scripture in these passages to fit your own need.

I think you recognize Jesus is using a parable to illustrate a point as He often did.

The whole Catholic meme about interpretation falls apart in verse 63 which they virtually ALL ignore, which is where JESUS HIMSELF explains the interpretation and that it's a metaphor.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

152 posted on 02/25/2015 9:51:01 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: bike800
Could not the opposite also be true? People want to be judged merely on their faith so that they don’t have to be concerned with actually doing anything...aka Luther...

John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Works are not required for salvation for two reasons. One is that works don't save. The sin debt we owe has already condemned us and no amount of works can attain forgiveness for us. Without the shedding of blood, there is NO forgiveness of sins.

The other reason is that until we are saved, our righteousness is as filthy rags in God's sight. So even IF they could, they are not good enough because they have to be the perfect works of the Law as perfect as Jesus did.

Additionally, once we have the righteousness of Christ credited to out account, there's no works that we could add that would even begin to compare to those.

Jesus became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God.

We are forgiven and declared innocent judicially therefore God is free to treat us as if we had never sinned, even though both He and we know that we do.Forgiveness isn't forgiveness if it is any way compensated for.

Living a life of holiness out of gratitude for what Jesus did for us, does not change our standing before God when we are forgiven and those works do not contribute or detract from our being saved. We are saved regardless.

153 posted on 02/25/2015 9:59:44 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Grateful2God
ealgeone:“15. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

G2G:It’s still God who put the names in; He decides.

Based on what?

Don't tell me you believe in predestination......

So if God decides, then why work?

154 posted on 02/25/2015 10:02:02 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: pgyanke
That's true... to a point. From there, you have to remember that we are sinners constantly being saved. It is not once saved, always saved. It's more like... now that you're saved, stay saved.

But you can't STAY saved any more than you can become saved.

Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

The Corporal Works of Mercy are not works to earn our salvation like coins of the realm. They are chastisements of the flesh to orient us toward God's Will. They are self-denial and sacrifice in the service of Love. It isn't that we buy our way into Heaven, it is more of a walk along the path to our journey's end.

Corporal Works of Mercy are not once mentioned in Scripture. The term appears nowhere.

155 posted on 02/25/2015 10:05:53 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: pgyanke
I realized there had to be a Church with real authority or Christ had not fulfilled His promise.

All believers have authority in Christ. We are all ambassadors for Christ.

So why does there have to be a centralized church authority? For what purpose?

156 posted on 02/25/2015 10:07:38 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: tjd1454; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; CynicalBear; daniel1212; Gamecock; ...
One detects a subtle arrogance not only of "possessing the correct theology" (unlike those Papists) but of a mistaken assurance that one is "eternally secure" and thus can commit any sin with impunity.

And just where on FR have you ever seen anyone advocate that now that we're saved we can commit any sin with impunity?

That charge is laid at the feet of Christians ONLY BY the RC's, who accuse us of believing that.

I have yet to see ONE poster advocate that. Perhaps you could point us to the post where someone has said that.

157 posted on 02/25/2015 10:12:04 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom
The whole Catholic meme about interpretation falls apart in verse 63 which they virtually ALL ignore, which is where JESUS HIMSELF explains the interpretation and that it's a metaphor.

No, it doesn't. You just stop listening when you hear the answer you want... or don't listen to an answer you don't want. Either way.

In John 6:63, Christ is speaking of our fleshly limitations. We can't understand His teaching because we see with carnal eyes where He is speaking of Spiritual matters. "The" flesh (not "My Flesh") is a New Testament term often used to describe our human nature apart from God's Grace. Here, Our Lord is reiterating that no once can come to Him (understand Him) unless drawn by the Father. Those of the flesh do not understand matters of the Spirit. That is His explanation for why so many left Him. On another level very closely related to that last point, Christ said, “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail,” because He wills to eliminate any possibility of a sort of crass literalism that would reduce His Words to a cannibalistic understanding. It is a cross-understanding with the verses before which speak of His Ascension. The Ascension and the distribution of His Body and Blood in the species of bread and wine are works of the Holy Spirit--as is our belief in the testimony of Christ.

At the Last Supper, Our Lord didn't raise the flesh of the lamb and proclaim it to be Him--though He is the Lamb of God. He raised the unleavened bread. It isn't the form of the flesh that matters but the Spirit which gives life. This is the Transubstantiation that afflicts so many on the outside and yet gives life to the Church. What you think is a modern "gotcha" for our way of thinking is actually a matter of deep theological insight for the greats among the Doctors of the Church.

158 posted on 02/25/2015 10:24:27 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: metmom
Corporal Works of Mercy are not once mentioned in Scripture. The term appears nowhere.

Neither does "Trinity". What did Adam do in the Garden when presented with the animals? He named them. That's what man does. He names things to understand them. Giving names to theological understandings doesn't change the theological reality. It simply gives us a common language for discussion.

159 posted on 02/25/2015 10:30:23 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: metmom
So why does there have to be a centralized church authority? For what purpose?

Why were the Epistles written? For what purpose did St Paul write the Corinthians?

160 posted on 02/25/2015 10:31:12 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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