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Faith Alone v. Forgiving Trespasses: How the Lord's Prayer Contradicts the Reformation
Catholic Defense ^ | February 25, 2015

Posted on 02/25/2015 11:50:17 AM PST by NYer

Lines from the Lord's Prayer, in various languages.
From the Eucharist Door at the Glory Facade of the Sagrada Família in Barcelona, Spain.

It's Lent in Rome. That means it's time for one of the great Roman traditions: station churches. Each morning, English-speaking pilgrims walk to a different church for Mass. This morning, on the way to St. Anastasia's, I was once again struck by a line in the Our Father: “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” That's a hard thing to pray, It doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. Even the Catechism seems shocked by it:

This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, "And forgive us our trespasses," it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord's Prayer, since Christ's sacrifice is "that sins may be forgiven." But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word "as."
Upon arriving at Mass, I discovered that the Gospel for the day was Matthew 6:7-15, in which Christ introduces this prayer. That seemed too serendipitous to simply be a coincidence. Then Archbishop Di Noia, O.P., got up to preach the homily, and it was all about how to understand this particular petition. So here goes: I think that the Lord's Prayer is flatly inconsistent with sola fide, the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone. Here's why.

In this line of the Lord's Prayer, Jesus seems to be explicitly conditioning our forgiveness on our forgiving. Indeed, it's hard to read “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” any other way. What's more, after introducing the prayer, Jesus focuses on this line, in particular. Here's how He explains it (Matthew 6:14-15):
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
So to be forgiven, you must forgive. If you do, you'll be forgiven. If you don't, you won't be. It's as simple as that.

So Christ has now told us three times that our being forgiven is conditioned upon our forgiving, using the most explicit of language. How does Luther respond to this? “God forgives freely and without condition, out of pure grace.” And what is Calvin's response? “The forgiveness, which we ask that God would give us, does not depend on the forgiveness which we grant to others.”

Their theology forces them to deny Christ's plain words, since admitting them would concede that we need something more than faith alone: we also need to forgive our neighbors. They've painted themselves into a corner, theologically. To get out of it, they change this part of the Our Father into either a way that we can know that we're saved (Luther's approach: that God “set this up for our confirmation and assurance for a sign alongside of the promise which accords with this prayer”) or a non-binding moral exhortation (Calvin's: “to remind us of the feelings which we ought to cherish towards brethren, when we desire to be reconciled to God”).

Modern Protestants tend to do the same thing with these verses, and countless other passages in which Christ or the New Testament authors teach us about something besides faith that's necessary for salvation. We see this particularly in regards to the Biblical teaching on the saving role of Baptism (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21) and works (Matthew 25:31-46; Romans 2:6-8; James 2). There are three common tactics employed:

  1. Reverse the causality. If a passage says that you must do X in order to be saved, claim that it really means that if you're saved, you'll just naturally do X. Thus, X is important for showing that you're saved, but it doesn't actually do anything, and certainly isn't necessary for salvation (even if the Bible says otherwise: Mark 16:16).
  2. No True Scotsman. If Scripture says that someone believed and then lost their salvation (like Simon the Magician in Acts 8, or the heretics mentioned in 2 Peter 2), say that they must not have ever actually believed (even if the Bible says the opposite: Acts 8:13, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22).
  3. Spiritualize the passage into oblivion. If the Bible says that Baptism is necessary for salvation, argue that this is just a “spiritual” Baptism that means nothing more than believing. And if you need to get around the need to be “born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) spiritualize this, too, to get rid of the need for water. Reduce everything to a symbol, or a metaphor for faith.

In fairness to both the Reformers and to modern Protestants, they want to avoid any notion that we can earn God's forgiveness or our salvation. This doesn't justify denying or distorting Christ's words, but it's a holy impulse. And in fact, it was the theme of Abp. Di Noia's homily this morning. Grace is a gift, and what's more, grace is what enables us to forgive others. This point is key, because it explains why Christ isn't teaching something like Pelagianism.

God freely pours out His graces upon us, which bring about both (a) our forgiveness, and (b) our ability to forgive others. But we can choose to accept that grace and act upon it, or to reject it. And that decision has eternal consequences. Such an understanding is harmonious with Christ's actual words, while avoiding any idea that we possess the power to earn our salvation.

So both Catholics and Protestants reject Pelagianism, but there's a critical difference. Catholics believe that grace enables us to do good works, whereas Protestants tend to believe that grace causes us to do good works. To see why it matters, consider the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:21-35. In this parable, we see three things happen:

  1. A debtor is forgiven an enormous debt of ten thousand talents (Mt. 18:25-27). Solely through the grace of the Master (clearly representing God), this man is forgiven his debts (sins). He is in a state of grace.
  2. This debtor refuses to forgive his neighbor of a small debt of 100 denarii (Mt. 18:28-30). The fact that he's been forgiven should enable the debtor to be forgiving: in being forgiven, he's received the equivalent of 60,000,000 denarii, and he's certainly seen a moral model to follow. But he turns away from the model laid out by the Master, and refuses to forgive his neighbor.
  3. This debtor is unforgiven by his Master (Mt. 18:32-35). The kicker comes at the very end: “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
Now, consider all of the Protestant work-arounds discussed above. To deny that this debtor was ever really forgiven would be an insult to the Master and in contradiction to the text. To say that, if we're forgiven, we'll just naturally forgive is equally a contradiction: this debtor is forgiven, and doesn't. To treat the need to forgive the other debtor as a non-binding moral exhortation would have been a fatal error. 

This parable gets to the heart of the issue. The Master's forgiveness is freely given, and cannot be earned. But that doesn't mean it's given unconditionally or irrevocably. Quite the contrary: Christ shows us in this parable that it can be repealed, and tells us why: if we refuse to forgive, we will not be forgiven. It turns out, the Lord's Prayer actually means what it says.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: bumpusadsummum; calvin; catholic; faithalone; forgiveness; forgivingtrespasses; luther; ourfather; paternoster; prayer; solafide; thelordsprayer; theourfather
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To: ImaGraftedBranch
You are now my favorite poster on FR.

I am truly humbled. I'm not sure what to say to that. Thank you for the encouragement. I don't maintain a ping list... I just post when I have time and something catches my eye. With four kids and my own business... that can be a bit sporadic. I have linked to some of my favorite discussions on my webpage. May God bless you.

81 posted on 02/25/2015 5:13:20 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: CynicalBear
You're a broken record. Reconcile Romans 11:6 with James 2 posted in #47. Do James and Paul have a disagreement?
82 posted on 02/25/2015 5:17:34 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: ImaGraftedBranch
My youngest son is the most theologically gifted young man I have ever seen, in his junior year of college, with 4 years of Koine Greek and two years of Hebrew behind him ( and more to come), and has the greatest understanding of not only scripture, but early church fathers and exegetical scholarship as well, that I have herd of for a young man.

I would be interested in his understanding of the immaculate conception and perpetual virginity of Mary from the catholic perspective when analyzed by the Greek.

83 posted on 02/25/2015 5:17:36 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: Mark17
Not one saved person will be standing there.

Romans 2 would tend to disagree with your interpretation.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


84 posted on 02/25/2015 5:22:32 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: CynicalBear
Christ literally said His words were spirit. He literally said the flesh didn’t profit anything. He literally told John in Revelation to eat the scroll. He said rivers of water would run from your belly. He literally set the law against eating blood. He literally had to abide by every law to be considered sin free.

And He literally had to die on a tree. His Words are Spirit but the physical world has role to play in God's plan.

85 posted on 02/25/2015 5:24:59 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: ImaGraftedBranch
Jesus weeps.

Indeed.

86 posted on 02/25/2015 5:28:27 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke
>>If you don’t understand Romans, James 2 will seem to contradict. What do you say?<<

That's very easy. James and Paul do not contradict each other. Keep in mind that one verse cannot stand alone in contradiction to many other passages in scripture. James only focuses more heavily on the results of true faith. True faith with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will naturally produce the right actions. Notice results of true faith. The actions are simply proof of true faith. It still remains that it's the faith that resulted in salvation with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The right deeds followed that true faith and were the result of it. The Greek word in your verse 22 means to complete as in finishing a race. In other words the "win" at the end of the race was the result of running the race.

Paul clearly understood that by focusing on true faith in Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit right deeds would naturally follow. Those who are telling Christ that they cast out demons etc were doing it of their own volition for their own glory or hope for reward. Those who were saved and asked Jesus when they had done those things to Him didn't even realize because it was a natural act due to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

87 posted on 02/25/2015 5:34:22 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: pgyanke
>>Do James and Paul have a disagreement?<<

Nope. Just answered that.

88 posted on 02/25/2015 5:35:53 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: ImaGraftedBranch; metmom
I bring this up as your comment discussed a literal New Testament statement by Paul. Why aren’t Christ’s literal words enough?

The problem with that is, if you think Jesus meant we must literally and physically eat his body, then you must always take things literally. Who gets to choose? Like metmom asks, have you plucked out your eyes lately? He said he was the door. I don't think he was made of wood with a metal handle. He said he was the Good Shepard, but I don't think his followers get sheared for their wool. He is the bright and morning star, but I don't think he shines in the sky at night. He is the Lily of the Valley, but I don't think he is growing in the ground. He is the Alpha and the Omega, but I don't think he is letters on a piece of paper. Where do we draw the line between literal and figurative? BTW, I agree with your tag line. There is a great falling away, and it is happening right before our eyes. Truer words were never spoken.

89 posted on 02/25/2015 5:37:12 PM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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To: CynicalBear
What you miss is that they are talking about two different subjects... mostly. In Romans, St Paul is talking about works of the Law and taking great pains to explain why we could not earn our salvation through faithfulness to the Law. The Law was given to show our sinfulness not as a blueprint to salvation.

James is broadly talking about our Christian walk and our faith manifest in our works. What you have to see in the difference in the focus of the two is that James points out that we are not saved by faith alone but rather our faith shown through our works. Note that there is an indivisible physical element of this faith walk that too many Protestants deny.

90 posted on 02/25/2015 5:45:16 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke

” This thread isn’t trashing anybody but exploring matters of faith. “

So this excuse tortures the Lords prayer even worse than the specious argument about Protestants doing the same.

In essence your argument here is: “I’m not trespassing, I’m exploring, so I don’t need you to forgive me, and so I don’t have to forgive you”

It’s like explaining rape as “exploring sexuality” while the one getting raped may have a different opinion about it.

This Protestant forgives you anyway. But really this excuse for “exploration” should be repudiated by Catholics and Protestants together.


91 posted on 02/25/2015 5:48:09 PM PST by RFEngineer
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To: Mark17
The problem with that is, if you think Jesus meant we must literally and physically eat his body, then you must always take things literally.

Says who? You?

Who gets to choose?

How about the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth... The Church.

Like metmom asks, have you plucked out your eyes lately?

Like pgyanke asks, where were we commanded to pluck out our eyes? Sure, there was the suggestion that we might choose that course of action as a solution to our sinfulness... but it wasn't a direct command.

He said he was the door. I don't think he was made of wood with a metal handle.

You define the term too narrowly: Door is also defined "any means of approach, admittance, or access:" Seems to fit to me.

He said he was the Good Shepard, but I don't think his followers get sheared for their wool.

Again, too narrow a definition: I am gladly of his fold and see no insult in him calling me his sheep. Baaah.

He is the bright and morning star, but I don't think he shines in the sky at night. He is the Lily of the Valley, but I don't think he is growing in the ground. He is the Alpha and the Omega, but I don't think he is letters on a piece of paper.

You are far to narrow in your interpretations all around. He is the Light in the darkness and the rare flower among thorns. He is beginning and end, not just a jot or tiddle.

Look, there are metaphors in the Bible, yes. But that doesn't make everything metaphor. There are direct exhortations also that demand attention. Jesus used metaphor to explain our relationship to him. He is the vine and I am a branch of His. This explains how we can be a separate individual and yet still part of Him. However, there is only one place in all of Scripture where Jesus says, "This is Me." ... and it wasn't while holding Scripture (which He held often). It was only when He took the bread and fulfilled the Jewish Passover which was to be always celebrated in all times. Do you still celebrate it? We do. It's the Mass. What Jesus said... is.

92 posted on 02/25/2015 5:57:03 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: RFEngineer
This Protestant forgives you anyway.

For what?

93 posted on 02/25/2015 5:58:34 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke
>>St Paul is talking about works of the Law<<

People like to use that but it's not true. Paul distinctly uses "works of the law" when he means "works of the law". In Romans 11:6 does not use "works of the law". Also in Ephesians he again uses works so no one could boast.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

He is clearly stating that what man does is not how he gets saved. It's "by grace through faith". He said "not from yourselves. In other words not something you do.

94 posted on 02/25/2015 6:05:41 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Mark17; daniel1212; metmom; Gamecock; boatbums
Yes if we approach God's Throne with any of OUR deeds in hand then we will be found lacking.

But we have an Advocate in Christ Jesus.


95 posted on 02/25/2015 6:08:18 PM PST by redleghunter (He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. Lk24)
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To: Gamecock; pgyanke; Alex Murphy

I think I can agree with pgyanke on this one guys. I agree that so far on this, at least with him, it has been “This thread isn’t trashing anybody but exploring matters of faith”. I’m going to give him this one.


96 posted on 02/25/2015 6:11:36 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Alex Murphy
And what is Calvin's response? “The forgiveness, which we ask that God would give us, does not depend on the forgiveness which we grant to others.”

Is this a misquote?

97 posted on 02/25/2015 6:17:56 PM PST by Grateful2God (Oh dear Jesus, Oh merciful Jesus, Oh Jesus, son of Mary, have mercy on me. Amen.)
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To: pgyanke; metmom; CynicalBear; boatbums; RnMomof7
🙈🙉🙊 That is just your interpretation. I don't agree with you. As an ex catholic myself, I would like to know how you interpret that God is not a respector of people. I know what I think of it, but I would like to know what you think. Maybe that is just another thing we can disagree on. 😇 Here is another point. When I was a catholic, I was always told I could never intetpret scripture, unless the priest was there to interpret for me. Did that change, because here you are interpreting scripture? If you spent a little time in Colorado Springs, maybe you heard about the Navigators in Col Spr. They led me to Jesus. Praise God for that. 😅😄👍
98 posted on 02/25/2015 6:21:12 PM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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To: pgyanke; Mark17
Like pgyanke asks, where were we commanded to pluck out our eyes? Sure, there was the suggestion that we might choose that course of action as a solution to our sinfulness... but it wasn't a direct command.

Actually in the greek, pluck out is in the imperative....the mood of command.

Now, do we believe Jesus literally meant for us to do this?

No, else there would be a lot of maimed Christians.

It is ironic that you are using your own personal interpretation of Scripture in these passages to fit your own need.

I think you recognize Jesus is using a parable to illustrate a point as He often did.

Now, if you keep John 6 in context, you will see He calls Himself the bread of life. A parable if you will. There are admonitions to believe. This is real...it is how we come to faith...through believing in him. It is how you "eat the flesh" and "drink the blood".

No where does this passage suggest the catholic belief of transubstantiation where the bread and wind become the actual flesh and blood.

If we take this literally, then the disciples should have been literally eating Him right there on the spot. that they didn't is telling. They understood what He was saying.

99 posted on 02/25/2015 6:29:49 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: pgyanke; metmom; CynicalBear
Jesus weeps.

Indeed.

That sir, may be the only thing that you and I will EVER agree on, and I am talking about spiritual issues. We may be both against Obama, pro life, pro 2nd amendment, but beyond that, on spiritual issues, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. 😄

100 posted on 02/25/2015 6:32:07 PM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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