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Faith Alone v. Forgiving Trespasses: How the Lord's Prayer Contradicts the Reformation
Catholic Defense ^ | February 25, 2015

Posted on 02/25/2015 11:50:17 AM PST by NYer

Lines from the Lord's Prayer, in various languages.
From the Eucharist Door at the Glory Facade of the Sagrada Família in Barcelona, Spain.

It's Lent in Rome. That means it's time for one of the great Roman traditions: station churches. Each morning, English-speaking pilgrims walk to a different church for Mass. This morning, on the way to St. Anastasia's, I was once again struck by a line in the Our Father: “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” That's a hard thing to pray, It doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. Even the Catechism seems shocked by it:

This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, "And forgive us our trespasses," it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord's Prayer, since Christ's sacrifice is "that sins may be forgiven." But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word "as."
Upon arriving at Mass, I discovered that the Gospel for the day was Matthew 6:7-15, in which Christ introduces this prayer. That seemed too serendipitous to simply be a coincidence. Then Archbishop Di Noia, O.P., got up to preach the homily, and it was all about how to understand this particular petition. So here goes: I think that the Lord's Prayer is flatly inconsistent with sola fide, the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone. Here's why.

In this line of the Lord's Prayer, Jesus seems to be explicitly conditioning our forgiveness on our forgiving. Indeed, it's hard to read “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” any other way. What's more, after introducing the prayer, Jesus focuses on this line, in particular. Here's how He explains it (Matthew 6:14-15):
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
So to be forgiven, you must forgive. If you do, you'll be forgiven. If you don't, you won't be. It's as simple as that.

So Christ has now told us three times that our being forgiven is conditioned upon our forgiving, using the most explicit of language. How does Luther respond to this? “God forgives freely and without condition, out of pure grace.” And what is Calvin's response? “The forgiveness, which we ask that God would give us, does not depend on the forgiveness which we grant to others.”

Their theology forces them to deny Christ's plain words, since admitting them would concede that we need something more than faith alone: we also need to forgive our neighbors. They've painted themselves into a corner, theologically. To get out of it, they change this part of the Our Father into either a way that we can know that we're saved (Luther's approach: that God “set this up for our confirmation and assurance for a sign alongside of the promise which accords with this prayer”) or a non-binding moral exhortation (Calvin's: “to remind us of the feelings which we ought to cherish towards brethren, when we desire to be reconciled to God”).

Modern Protestants tend to do the same thing with these verses, and countless other passages in which Christ or the New Testament authors teach us about something besides faith that's necessary for salvation. We see this particularly in regards to the Biblical teaching on the saving role of Baptism (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21) and works (Matthew 25:31-46; Romans 2:6-8; James 2). There are three common tactics employed:

  1. Reverse the causality. If a passage says that you must do X in order to be saved, claim that it really means that if you're saved, you'll just naturally do X. Thus, X is important for showing that you're saved, but it doesn't actually do anything, and certainly isn't necessary for salvation (even if the Bible says otherwise: Mark 16:16).
  2. No True Scotsman. If Scripture says that someone believed and then lost their salvation (like Simon the Magician in Acts 8, or the heretics mentioned in 2 Peter 2), say that they must not have ever actually believed (even if the Bible says the opposite: Acts 8:13, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22).
  3. Spiritualize the passage into oblivion. If the Bible says that Baptism is necessary for salvation, argue that this is just a “spiritual” Baptism that means nothing more than believing. And if you need to get around the need to be “born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) spiritualize this, too, to get rid of the need for water. Reduce everything to a symbol, or a metaphor for faith.

In fairness to both the Reformers and to modern Protestants, they want to avoid any notion that we can earn God's forgiveness or our salvation. This doesn't justify denying or distorting Christ's words, but it's a holy impulse. And in fact, it was the theme of Abp. Di Noia's homily this morning. Grace is a gift, and what's more, grace is what enables us to forgive others. This point is key, because it explains why Christ isn't teaching something like Pelagianism.

God freely pours out His graces upon us, which bring about both (a) our forgiveness, and (b) our ability to forgive others. But we can choose to accept that grace and act upon it, or to reject it. And that decision has eternal consequences. Such an understanding is harmonious with Christ's actual words, while avoiding any idea that we possess the power to earn our salvation.

So both Catholics and Protestants reject Pelagianism, but there's a critical difference. Catholics believe that grace enables us to do good works, whereas Protestants tend to believe that grace causes us to do good works. To see why it matters, consider the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:21-35. In this parable, we see three things happen:

  1. A debtor is forgiven an enormous debt of ten thousand talents (Mt. 18:25-27). Solely through the grace of the Master (clearly representing God), this man is forgiven his debts (sins). He is in a state of grace.
  2. This debtor refuses to forgive his neighbor of a small debt of 100 denarii (Mt. 18:28-30). The fact that he's been forgiven should enable the debtor to be forgiving: in being forgiven, he's received the equivalent of 60,000,000 denarii, and he's certainly seen a moral model to follow. But he turns away from the model laid out by the Master, and refuses to forgive his neighbor.
  3. This debtor is unforgiven by his Master (Mt. 18:32-35). The kicker comes at the very end: “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
Now, consider all of the Protestant work-arounds discussed above. To deny that this debtor was ever really forgiven would be an insult to the Master and in contradiction to the text. To say that, if we're forgiven, we'll just naturally forgive is equally a contradiction: this debtor is forgiven, and doesn't. To treat the need to forgive the other debtor as a non-binding moral exhortation would have been a fatal error. 

This parable gets to the heart of the issue. The Master's forgiveness is freely given, and cannot be earned. But that doesn't mean it's given unconditionally or irrevocably. Quite the contrary: Christ shows us in this parable that it can be repealed, and tells us why: if we refuse to forgive, we will not be forgiven. It turns out, the Lord's Prayer actually means what it says.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: bumpusadsummum; calvin; catholic; faithalone; forgiveness; forgivingtrespasses; luther; ourfather; paternoster; prayer; solafide; thelordsprayer; theourfather
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To: pgyanke
>Actually in the greek, pluck out is in the imperative....the mood of command.< Yes... but it follows a conditional; "if."

Yes...if it causes you to stumble...pluck it out. If you've ever looked upon someone with lust, then your eye(s) should be plucked out. You have both of your eyes??

Again, no maimed Christians running around as a result.

>It is ironic that you are using your own personal interpretation of Scripture in these passages to fit your own need.<

It would be... if that were true.

Well, I almost stopped reading after the if thing with the Greek, but after this last one I just stopped.

121 posted on 02/25/2015 7:43:58 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: Grateful2God; CynicalBear
In the Religion forum, on a thread titled Faith Alone v. Forgiving Trespasses: How the Lord's Prayer Contradicts the Reformation, Mark17 wrote: Correct again sir. Are you ever wrong? 😄😃😀😊

I thought only God was always right...

Grateful, this is a joke, right, because I am joking with CB. Yes God is always right, but Cynicalbear is real close. He is a sharp dude.

(hey CB, you can just put that 50 dollar bill in an envelope and send it to me now.) 😄😃😀

122 posted on 02/25/2015 7:46:48 PM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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To: ealgeone
Well, I almost stopped reading after the if thing with the Greek, but after this last one I just stopped.

Farewell then.

123 posted on 02/25/2015 7:48:41 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke
Major Pet Peeve: Ignorance (and the exuberant display thereof).

You must get very frustrated with yourself.

124 posted on 02/25/2015 7:56:17 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: Grateful2God

Perhaps you misunderstand me. According to the Bible, if you are subject to works of the law for salvation, you have to be absolutely perfect. SINLESS PERFECTION IS THE STANDARD! There is no greater bondage.


125 posted on 02/25/2015 7:56:18 PM PST by .45 Long Colt
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To: ealgeone

Have I said something to make you angry? You’re making this awfully personal.


126 posted on 02/25/2015 8:02:39 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: Mark17; CynicalBear
Guess the joke was on me. Enjoy!
127 posted on 02/25/2015 8:07:00 PM PST by Grateful2God (Oh dear Jesus, Oh merciful Jesus, Oh Jesus, son of Mary, have mercy on me. Amen.)
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To: pgyanke
Nope....just checked out your homepage. The pet peeve is straight from your page.

It comes through in your postings.

If you want to have a serious discussion I'm good with that if it's based on facts. Your homepage notes you're very opinionated.(very fond of own opinion) Ok, fine. No problem with that. We all probably are. But opinions are trumped by fact.

I showed you in the Greek where the verse about plucking out your eye was in the imperative form....a command. You replied it follows a conditional "if" in what appeared to be a dodge of the issue whether to take this verse literally or symbolically in relation to our discussion on John 6.

You also gave your opinion on other places where Jesus used a metaphor to describe Himself.

Except you double down on John 6 where He's doing the same thing if the passage is read in context.

You want to have a fact based discussion. I'm open. Opinions no. Seen too many on this board not supported by fact.

128 posted on 02/25/2015 8:11:13 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: NYer
The “heart” of the issue is that our justification before God is by grace through faith WITHOUT our works. What Jesus is teaching concerning our forgiveness and our forgiveness towards others deals with how we lead our lives in honor to bring glory to God. Our forgiving others is NOT what merits our eternal life. What it DOES do is help us walk in fellowship with God and our fellow man while in this life. An unforgiving attitude towards others will block God's forgiveness for our wrongs and His cleansing us of all unrighteousness - we cannot walk in full fellowship with Him enjoying His blessings as long as we harbor unforgiveness in our hearts towards others. But this is NOT the same thing as how God justifies us by His grace through faith and not of ourselves.

Perhaps if the author wasn't so eager to criticize "Protestants" and the Reformation and presumptuously promote Roman Catholicism, he might have discovered that WAS what the Reformers were talking about.

129 posted on 02/25/2015 8:12:50 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: pgyanke

BTW....thank you for your service to our country!


130 posted on 02/25/2015 8:15:42 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: redleghunter
Bro no more rank. We are both veterans now:)

No pecking order waiting in VA long lines.

Amen to that. I don't usually go to the VA. I go to David Grant Medical Center at Travis AFB. I will be returning to California next week, to do that. I did get 10% disability for being in Vietnam. Because of that, my son is graduating from Cal State University, Sacramento in a couple of months. Good for him, as I was just a puke faced, know nothing enlisted man, but my woman is good looking. You can see her on my profile page. 😄😃😀😊

131 posted on 02/25/2015 8:16:43 PM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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To: ealgeone

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


132 posted on 02/25/2015 8:19:59 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: ealgeone
It comes through in your postings.

Ok, if you say so.

I showed you in the Greek where the verse about plucking out your eye was in the imperative form....a command. You replied it follows a conditional "if" in what appeared to be a dodge of the issue whether to take this verse literally or symbolically in relation to our discussion on John 6.

And I showed you where the statement begins with "if". Jesus spoke with a lot of conditionals. A careful reading of the Beatitudes shows it full of conditional language. "'If' you are poor in Spirit, the Kingdom of God is yours." A conditional statement isn't a statement of command, it is a declaration. The point of the Beatitude is the reward for those who are humble. The point to the "plucking" discourse is that it is better to lose offensive parts of ourselves rather than lose our whole selves. It is a challenge to perfection, not a command to dismemberment.

You also gave your opinion on other places where Jesus used a metaphor to describe Himself.

Except you double down on John 6 where He's doing the same thing if the passage is read in context.

Except that if you read John 6 in context you will see that his Jewish audience understood very well that Jesus meant what He said. When they pressed to be sure they heard what they thought they heard, Jesus doubled down and drove them away rather than explain He meant it figuratively. Flash forward to the Last Supper and you have the fulfillment of His Word in the literal fashion.

Your problem isn't with me. Your problem is with the Church Who takes Christ directly at His Word. The same Church Who taught all of us about the Bible and preserved it through history for our consumption. Unfortunately, my Protestant FRiends tend to be like kids in a classroom who, when they get their hands on the textbook, turn to the teacher to tell her why he understanding of the subject is incorrect.

133 posted on 02/25/2015 8:25:59 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: Religion Moderator

All I did was pull quotes from his homepage. He wrote’em....not me. But will keep it from being personal.


134 posted on 02/25/2015 8:34:13 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: Salvation; ealgeone

If you’re really a Catholic you better she’s the only way to salvation!

”There is no one, O Most Holy Mary, who can know God except through thee; no one who can be saved or redeemed but through thee, O Mother of God; no one who can be delivered from dangers but through thee, O Virgin Mother; no one who obtains mercy but through thee, O Filled-With-All-Grace!” -Saint Germanus of Constantinople, Patriarch of Constantinople, d. 733 AD

”It is impossible to save one’s soul without devotion to Mary and without her protection.” -Saint Anselm, Archbishop and Doctor of the Church, 1033-1109 AD

“The pious and learned Jesuit, Suarez, Justus Lipsius, a devout and erudite theologian of Louvain, and many others have proved incontestably that devotion to our Blessed Lady is necessary to attain salvation. This they show from the teaching of the Fathers, notably St. Augustine, St. Ephrem, deacon of Edessa, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Germanus of Constantinople, St. John Demascene, St. Anselm, St. Bernard, St. Bernardine, St. Thomas and St. Bonaventure. Even according to Oecolampadius and other heretics, lack of esteem and love for the Virgin Mary is an infallible sign of God’s disapproval. On the other hand, to be entirely and genuinely devoted to her is a sure sign of God’s approval.” -Saint Louis Marie de Montfort, 1673-1716 AD

“The greatest saints, those richest in grace and virtue will be the most assiduous in praying to the most Blessed Virgin, looking up to her as the perfect model to imitate and as a powerful helper to assist them.” -Saint Louis Marie de Montfort, 1673-1716 AD

Your denomination’s history is rich in praying to her and through her.


135 posted on 02/25/2015 8:34:30 PM PST by mrobisr
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To: pgyanke

You do know what a conditional is......right?


136 posted on 02/25/2015 8:35:43 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone
If we take this literally, then the disciples should have been literally eating Him right there on the spot. that they didn't is telling. They understood what He was saying.

Those that didn't believe Jesus were the ones who took his words literally. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?' ...

Bottom line is that the Romanists align themselves with the people who rejected Christ and did not believe.

137 posted on 02/25/2015 8:39:14 PM PST by dartuser
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To: pgyanke; Gamecock; Alex Murphy
However, the trashing that is done on here is frequent and direct. Hardly a day goes by without some one of you eager beavers pointing out the "evil" of the Catholic Church. We simply try to point out what you have gotten wrong... and it is quite a bit.

Perhaps you failed to notice that this thread is trashing "Protestants" and the Reformation - something that hardly a day goes by where your OWN group of eager-beavers point out the "evils" of anyone who isn't a Roman Catholic (and even some Catholics get trashed!) and how the Roman Catholic church is "THE one true church Jesus established" and anyone else is out of luck. Do you not read the myriad threads posted by your "side"?

If non-Catholic Christians believe that we ought to defend what we believe against those who insist we are wrong and they are right because their church says they are, then why would you begrudge that? Is not Free Republic open to ALL? Should it be open season on everyone BUT Roman Catholicism? I think there are plenty of Roman Catholic websites represented on the internet already. There certainly are regular Catholic Caucus threads where you can be shielded from dissenting views if it bothers you that much.

Had the author of this thread simply posted the same thoughts about forgiveness and the "Lord's Prayer" and left out the gratuitous Protestant bashing, there wouldn't be any uproar. Instead, what is coming across is the inability of modern Roman Catholics to forgive something that happened five hundred years ago and to which they STILL blame people who had nothing to do with it. Forgive and you shall be forgiven.

138 posted on 02/25/2015 8:41:02 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: bike800
.aka Luther..

Reading the abridged version of Luther? LOL!

139 posted on 02/25/2015 8:45:39 PM PST by xone
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To: Grateful2God
😄 Enjoy too.
140 posted on 02/25/2015 8:46:48 PM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love has never faltered, all it's wonder still remains. Souls still take eternal passage)
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