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The Immaculate Conception in Scripture
catholic.com ^ | December 6, 2014 | Tim Staples

Posted on 02/03/2015 9:37:18 PM PST by Morgana

In my new book, Behold Your Mother - A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines, I give eight reasons for belief in the Immaculate Conception:

1. Mary is revealed to be "full of grace" in Luke 1:28.

2. Mary is revealed to be the fulfillment of the prophetic "Daughter of Zion" of Zech. 2:10; Zeph. 3:14-16; Isaiah 12:1-6, etc.

3. Mary is revealed to be "the beginning of the new creation" in fufillment of the prophecy of Jer. 31:22.

4. Mary is revealed to possess a "blessed state" parallel with Christ's in Luke 1:42.

5. Mary is not just called "blessed" among women, but "more blessed than all women" (including Eve) in Luke 1:42.

6. Mary is revealed to be the spotless "Ark of the Covenant" in Luke 1.

7. Mary is revealed to be the "New Eve" in Luke 1:37-38; John 2:4; 19:26-27; Rev. 12, and elsewhere.

8. Mary is revealed to be free from the pangs of labor in fulfillment of Isaiah 66:7-8.

Here, I will present some snippets from three of these biblical reasons for faith. But first, I must say I am sympathetic to my Protestant friends, and others, who struggle with this teaching of the Catholic Faith. Romans 3:23 says, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” I John 1:8 adds, “If any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him.” These texts could not be clearer for millions of Protestants: “How could anyone believe Mary was free from all sin in light of these Scriptures? What’s more, Mary herself said, ‘My soul rejoices in God my savior’ in Luke 1:47. She clearly understood herself to be a sinner if she admits to needing a savior.”

The Catholic Answer

Not a few Protestants are surprised to discover the Catholic Church actually agrees that Mary was “saved.” Indeed, Mary needed a savior! However, Mary was “saved” from sin in a most sublime manner. She was given the grace to be “saved” completely from sin so that she never committed even the slightest transgression. The problem here is Protestants tend to emphasize God’s “salvation” almost exclusively to the forgiveness of sins actually committed. However, Sacred Scripture indicates that salvation can also refer to man being protected from sinning before the fact.

Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever (Jude 24-25).

The great Franciscan theologian, Duns Scotus, explained ca. 600 years ago that falling into sin could be likened to a man approaching unaware a massive 20-feet deep ditch. If he falls into the ditch, he would need someone to lower a rope and save him. But if someone were to warn him of the danger ahead resulting in the man not falling into the ditch at all, he would have been saved from falling in the first place. Analogously, Mary was saved from sin by receiving the grace to be preserved from it. But she was still saved.

The Exception[s] to the Rule

But what about “all have sinned,” and “if any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him?” Wouldn’t “all” and/or “any man” include Mary? On the surface, this sounds reasonable. But this way of thinking carried to its logical conclusion would list Jesus Christ in the company of sinners as well. No Christian would dare say that! Yet, no Christian can deny the plain texts of Scripture declaring Christ’s full humanity either. Thus, if one is going to take I John 1:8 in a strict, literal sense, then any man would apply to Jesus as well!

The truth is—and all Christians agree—Jesus Christ was an exception to Romans 3:23 and I John 1:8. And the Bible tells us he was in Hebrews 4:15: “Christ was tempted in all points even as we are and yet he was without sin.” The real question now is: are there any other exceptions to this rule? Yes, there are. In fact, there are millions of them.

First of all, we need to recall that both of these texts—Romans 3:23 and I John 1:8—are dealing with personal rather than original sin. Romans 5:12 will deal with original sin. And there are two exceptions to that general biblical norm as well. But for now, we will simply deal with Romans 3:23 and I John 1:8. I John 1:8 obviously refers to personal sin because in the very next verse, St. John tells us, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins…” We do not confess original sin; we confess personal sins.

The context of Romans 3:23 makes clear that it too refers to personal sin:

None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave. They use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness (Romans 3:10-14).

Original sin is not something we do; it is something we’ve inherited. Romans chapter three deals with personal sin because it speaks of sins committed by the sinner. With this in mind, consider this: Has a baby in the womb or a child of two ever committed a personal sin? No, they haven’t (see Romans 9:11)! Or, how about the mentally challenged who do not have the use of their intellects and wills? These cannot sin because in order to sin a person has to know the act he is about to perform is sinful while freely engaging his will in carrying it out. Without the proper faculties to enable them to sin, children before the age of accountability and anyone who does not have the use of his intellect and will cannot sin. Right there you have millions of exceptions to Romans 3:23 and I John 1:8.

The question remains: how do we know Mary is an exception to the norm of “all have sinned?” And more specifically, is there biblical support for this claim? Yes, there is. Indeed, there is much biblical support, but in this brief post I shall cite just three examples, among the eight, as I said before, that give us biblical support for this ancient doctrine of the Faith.

1. LUKE 1:28:

And [the angel Gabriel] came to [Mary] and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.”

Many Protestants will insist this text to be little more than a common greeting of the Archangel Gabriel to Mary. “What would this have to do with Mary being without sin?” Yet, the truth is, according to Mary herself, this was no common greeting. The text reveals Mary to have been “greatly troubled at the saying and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be” (Luke 1:29, emphasis added). What was it about this greeting that was so uncommon for Mary to react this way? There are at least two key reasons:

First, according to many biblical scholars as well as Pope St. John Paul II, the angel did more than simply greet Mary. The angel actually communicated a new name or title to her. In Greek, the greeting was kaire, kekaritomene, or “Hail, full of grace.” Generally speaking, when one greeted another with kaire, a name or title would almost be expected to be found in the immediate context. “Hail, king of the Jews” in John 19:3 and “Claudias Lysias, to his Excellency the governor Felix, greeting” (Acts 23:26) are two biblical examples of this. The fact that the angel replaces Mary’s name in the greeting with “full of grace” was anything but common. This would be analogous to me speaking to one of our tech guys at Catholics answers and saying, “Hello, he who fixes computers.” In our culture, I would just be considered weird. But in Hebrew culture, names, and name changes, tell us something that is permanent about the character and calling of the one named. Just recall the name changes of Abram to Abraham (changed from “father” to “father of the multitudes”) in Gen. 17:5, Saray to Sarah (“my princess” to “princess”) in Gen. 17:15, and Jacob to Israel (“supplanter” to “he who prevails with God”) in Gen. 32:28.

In each case, the names reveal something permanent about the one named. Abraham and Sarah transition from being a “father” and “princess” of one family to being “father” and “princess” or “mother” of the entire people of God (see Romans 4:1-18; Is. 51:1-2). They become Patriarch and Matriarch of God’s people forever. Jacob/Israel becomes the Patriarch whose name, “he who prevails with God,” continues forever in the Church, which is called “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16). The people of God will forever “prevail with God” in the image of the Patriarch Jacob who was not just named Israel, but he truly became “he who prevails with God.”

An entire tome could be written concerning the significance of God’s revelation of his name in Exodus 3:14-15 as I AM. God revealed to us volumes about his divine nature in and through the revelation of his name—God is pure being with no beginning and no end; he is all perfection, etc.

What’s in a name? A lot according to Scripture!

When you add to this the fact that St. Luke uses the perfect passive participle, kekaritomene, as his “name” for Mary, we get deeper insight into the meaning of Mary’s new name. This word literally means “she who has been graced” in a completed sense. This verbal adjective, “graced,” is not just describing a simple past action. Greek has the aorist tense for that. The perfect tense is used to indicate that an action has been completed in the past resulting in a present state of being. That’s Mary’s name! So what does it tell us about Mary? Well, the average Christian is not completed in grace and in a permanent sense (see Phil. 3:8-12). But according to the angel, Mary is. You and I sin, not because of grace, but because of a lack of grace, or a lack of our cooperation with grace, in our lives. This greeting of the angel is one clue into the unique character and calling of the Mother of God.

Objection!

One objection to the above is rooted in Eph. 2:8-9. Here, St. Paul uses the perfect tense and passive voice when he says, “For by grace you have been saved…” Why wouldn’t we then conclude all Christians are complete in salvation for all time? There seems to be an inconsistency in usage here.

Actually, the Catholic Church understands that Christians are completed in grace when they are baptized. In context, St. Paul is speaking about the initial grace of salvation in Ephesians two. The verses leading up to Eph. 2:8-9, make this clear:

… we all lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath…even when we were dead in trespasses and sins…(by grace you have been saved)” (vss. 3-5).

But there is no indication here, as there is with Mary, that the Christian is going to stay that way. In other words, Eph. 2:8-9 does not confer a name.

In fact, because of original sin, we can guarantee that though we are certainly perfected in grace through baptism, ordinarily speaking, we will not stay that way after we are baptized; that is, if we live for very long afterward (see I John 1:8)! There may be times in the lives of Christians when they are completed or perfected in grace temporarily. For example, after going to confession or receiving the Eucharist well-disposed. We let God, of course, be the judge of this, not us, as St. Paul tells us in I Cor. 4:3-4:

I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted (Gr.—justified). It is the Lord who judges me.

But only Mary is given the name “full of grace” and in the perfect tense indicating that this permanent state of Mary was completed.

2. An Ancient Prophecy—Genesis 3:15:

Genesis 3:15 is often referred to by biblical scholars as the Protoevangelium. It is a sort of “gospel” before “the gospel.” This little text contains in very few words God’s plan of salvation which would be both revealed and realized in the person of Jesus Christ. Yet, when one reads the text, one cannot help but note that this prophetic woman seems to have what could be termed almost a disturbing prominence and importance in God’s providential plan:

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed: he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

Not only do we have the Virgin Birth here implied because the text says the Messiah would be born of “the seed of the woman” (the “seed” is normally of the man), but notice “the woman” is not included as “the seed” of the devil. It seems that both the woman and her seed are in opposition to and therefore not under the dominion of the devil and “his seed,” i.e., all who have original sin and are “by nature children of wrath” as St. Paul puts it in Eph. 2:3. Here, we have in seed form (pun intended), the fact that the woman—Mary—would be without sin, especially original sin, just as her Son—the Messiah—would be. The emphasis on Mary is truly remarkable in that the future Messiah was only mentioned in relation to her. There can be little doubt that a parallel is being drawn between Jesus and Mary and their absolute opposition to the devil.

3. Mary, Ark of the Covenant:

The Old Testament ark of the Covenant was a true icon of the sacred. It was a picture of the purity and holiness God fittingly demands of those objects and/or persons most closely associated with himself and the plan of salvation. Because it would contain the very presence of God symbolized by three types of the coming Messiah—the manna, the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s staff—it had to be most pure and untouched by sinful man (see II Sam. 6:1-9; Exodus 25:10ff; Numbers 4:15; Heb. 9:4).

In the New Testament, the new and true Ark would not be an inanimate object, but a person—the Blessed Mother. How much more pure would the new and true Ark be when we consider the old ark was a mere “shadow” in relation to it (see Heb. 10:1)? This image of Mary as the Ark of the Covenant is an indicator that Mary would fittingly be free from all contagion of sin in order for her to be a worthy vessel to bear God in her womb. And most importantly, just as the Old Covenant ark was pristine from the moment it was constructed with explicit divine instructions in Exodus 25, so would Mary be most pure from the moment of her conception. God, in a sense, prepared his own dwelling place in both the Old and New Testaments.

In Behold Your Mother, there is much more that I say not only about these three above biblical reasons for the Immaculate Conception, but I give you five more reasons as well. There is only so much I can do in a brief blog post. But if you would like to dive deeper, click here.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: beholdyourmother; catholic; daughterofzion; fullofgrace; immaculateconcetion; mary
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To: Elsie
"You report; we decide."

And my Church is accountable to you (plural) because...?

I believe what the Catholic Church teaches. I choose to follow it. Mary is a perpetual virgin. Stating that does not interfere with a lack of marital relations; rather it is those who return persistently to the idea that it was otherwise who interfere where it's no one business but God's and Mary and Joseph's. Perhaps those so concerned with a literal interpretation of such things should enjoy a read of the Song of Songs and take that literally instead.

121 posted on 02/06/2015 8:10:20 AM PST by Grateful2God (That those from diverse religious traditions and all people of good will may work together for peace)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 101 | View Replies]

To: Morgana


Staples sophistry, take 2.

Having exposed Staples misdiagnosis on “The Protestant Achilles' Heel,” Morgana simply proceeds to provide another opportunity to expose cultic Catholic devotion which drives them to deny what Scripture reveals and compel Scripture to support teachings which are part of the many traditions of men that developed over time. While RCs cannot see Scripture as the only supreme sufficient (in formal and material aspects) standard for faith as described in my prior rebuttal, yet in-credibly they see the “Immaculate Conception” in Scripture, which is neither taught nor required in Scripture.

In my new book, Behold Your Mother - A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines, I give eight reasons for belief in the Immaculate Conception..Here, I will present some snippets from three of these biblical reasons for faith. But first, I must say I am sympathetic to my Protestant friends, and others, who struggle with this teaching of the Catholic Faith. Romans 3:23 says, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” I John 1:8 adds, “If any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him.”

However, Mary was “saved” from sin in a most sublime manner. She was given the grace to be “saved” completely from sin so that she never committed even the slightest transgression... Scripture indicates that salvation can also refer to man being protected from sinning before the fact.

Here the sophistry begins by arguing that since salvation and God being a Savior can mean being protected from sinning then this supports the premise that Mary never sinned. However, the former does not equate to the latter, and which remains to be established.

But what about “all have sinned,” and “if any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him?” Wouldn’t “all” and/or “any man” include Mary? On the surface, this sounds reasonable. But this way of thinking carried to its logical conclusion would list Jesus Christ in the company of sinners as well. No Christian would dare say that!

And the reason “No [true] Christian would dare say that!” is actually a refuting argument against the Immaculate Conception! For the reason why no true Christian would dare say that Christ sinned is because He is plainly declared to be without sin many times. (2Cor. 5:21; 1Pt. 2:22; cf. Jn. 8:45; Heb. 7:26) And which is consistent with how the Holy Spirit characteristically mentions notable deviations from the norm — which the sinless state of Mary certainly would be — even of far less primary persons. from From extraordinary age (Methuselah), to not dying (Enoch), to length of fast, to miraculous birth (Abraham and Sarah), to extraordinary height (Ogg) or strength (Samson) or toes (Goliath), or holiness (Job, Noah, Daniel) to supernatural transport (Phillip), to the extraordinary length of celibacy of Anna, and uncharacteristic duplicity of Peter, to virgin birth (Mary), to diet (John the Baptist), to the sinlessness of Christ, to the singleness of Paul and Barnabas, to the signs of an apostle, etc. Yet despite this the Holy Spirit says nothing about Mary being either sinless, or a perpetual virgin, or created beings being prayed to. And instead what He does teach weighs towards the norm for Mary having sinned and sexually cleaving in marriage.

Thus the argument for unrecorded Marian exception has no warrant, but instead only warrants her being as others in these aspects.

Romans 5:12 will deal with original sin...Original sin is not something we do; it is something we’ve inherited.

Actually, we inherit a spiritually dead Adamic nature that is prone to sin, and thus all do sin in time, except one who was God incarnate. And while we enter into the effects of the actions of others, yet we are not judged for what we are not culpable for, but judgment is always according to what we ourselves have done in the respective judgments of redeemed and lost, (2Cor. 5:10; . 20:11-15) and in accordance with light and grace given. (Lk. 12:48)

The question remains: how do we know Mary is an exception to the norm of “all have sinned?” And more specifically, is there biblical support for this claim? Yes, there is. Indeed, there is much biblical support,

Which audacious claim is typical of RCs who are all to willing to see whatever is needed or desirable to support Rome, and if this support was the basis for their veracity, which they are not. And even to relying on arguments their own church does not officially teach, but who will dismiss ours on that basis and tell us we need to rely on Rome to interpret Scripture.

And [the angel Gabriel] came to [Mary] and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.”... First, according to many biblical scholars as well as Pope St. John Paul II, the angel did more than simply greet Mary. The angel actually communicated a new name or title to her. In Greek, the greeting was kaire, kekaritomene, or “Hail, full of grace.”

Wrong. His own RC Bible for America does not say this “full of grace,” as the word for “full” is not even there. Kecharitomene (one form of the verb "charitoo") in Lk. 1:28, is never used for "full" elsewhere, but Lk. 1:28 simply says she was graced, favored, enriched with grace, as in Eph.1:6.

In Greek: καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ. κεχαριτωμένη, is the pf. pass. ptcp. of χαριτόω (charitoō). It is the single Greek word kexaritomena and means highly favored, make accepted, make graceful, etc. Repeated: It is a passive participle derived from charitoō. It does not mean "full of grace" or ‘completely filled with grace’ which is "plaras karitos" (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek.... Much more technical here :

In contrast, the only one (though in some manuscripts Stephen in Acts 6:8) said to be full of grace is the Lord Jesus, "full ("plērēs) of grace (charis) and truth," using "plērēs," which denotes "full" 17 other places in the NT. If Mary was uniquely perfectly full of grace as bearing Christ then it would say she was, as Christ was, (plērēs charis) and RCs would not have to engage in such egregious extrapolations in seeking to justify this invention.

However, seeking to compel Scripture to support her tradition of men, Lk, 1:28 was wrongly rendered "full of grace" in the DRB, rather than "highly favored" or similar, as in Rome's current official New American Bible, “Hail, favored one!" (http://usccb.org/bible/luke/1) Yet the DRB correctly translates Eph. 1:6 as "in which he hath graced us."

When you add to this the fact that St. Luke uses the perfect passive participle...The perfect tense is used to indicate that an action has been completed in the past resulting in a present state of being...But only Mary is given the name “full of grace” and in the perfect tense indicating that this permanent state of Mary was completed.

Mary is not given a name (see below) and nor said to be “full” of grace, and uniquely so, nor from what i read does kecharitomene being a perfect passive participle translate into meaning a "a perfection of grace," or distinctively a past action, in distinction to echaritosen (another form of the verb "charitoo") used in Eph. 1:6, as there also it refers to a present state based upon a past action, "To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted [echaritosen] in the beloved." (Ephesians 1:6)

See more on this issue here as White gets into detail with the Greek. (And notes that the fact that the Roman Catholic Church has to attempt to build such a complex theology on the form of a participle in a greeting should say a great deal in and of itself.)

Even Roman Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin said of Luke 1:28 on the word kecharitomene:

"This is a Greek term that you could use in that exact grammatical formation for someone else who wasn't immaculately conceived and the sentence would still make sense" like Mary's grandmother). He went on to say, "This is something where I said previously, we need the additional source of information from tradition and we need the guidance of the magisterium to be able to put these pieces together." Meaning the text does not teach the IM, nor is that necessary, but tradition becomes binding doctrine under the ultimate presumed authority of Rome.

Moreover, while Mary is highly blessed among women, and is to be honored according to what is written, this does not translate in the type of supererogation of praise seen in Catholicism, in which humble Mary is made into an almost almighty demigoddess!

Generally speaking, when one greeted another with kaire, a name or title would almost be expected to be found in the immediate context.

And indeed, in context that the angel was simply telling Mary she was graced of the Lord is confirmed in v. 30, “And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour [charis] with God,” (KJV), or as in the RC DRB: “hast found grace with God.”

The fact that the angel replaces Mary’s name in the greeting with “full of grace” was anything but common...

The fact is that the angel simply does not, but simply tells her that she is graced, as she was. Which is like the greeting given to Daniel, “O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong,” (Daniel 10:19) Likewise, literally in Greek, the angel tells Mary “Hail” [rejoice], graced [one], the Lord is with thee: blessed thou among women.”

In each case, the names reveal something permanent about the one named...What’s in a name? A lot according to Scripture!

But there is no name change here, as unlike cases such as “Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham,” (Genesis 17:5)”Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel,” (Genesis 32:28) ”Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone, (John 1:42) Mary is never addressed as “full of grace,” but is said to have found grace with God, and thus it is said of her, “Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,” and “henceforth all generations shall call me blessed,” (Lk. 1:42,48) And which does not say “more blessed than all women” due to Mary having surpassing virtue. And in fact, as Ratzinger admits, Mary “in the gospel tradition is quite marginal,” (God and the world, p. 296) while the Holy Spirit is far far more descriptive of the sacrificial labor of Paul, to whom He never manifestly attributes sin after his conversion.

Nor is “blessed art thou among women” a unique type of appellation, as Scripture also says, “Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.” (Judges 5:24)

Thus there is nothing in Lk. 1:28 that teaches or even infers Marian sinlessness, which we can be sure the Holy Spirit would have stated if that was the case as He did with other notable exceptions to the norm, especially among principal persons.

2. An Ancient Prophecy—Genesis 3:15:..I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed: he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. Not only do we have the Virgin Birth here implied because the text says the Messiah would be born of “the seed of the woman” (the “seed” is normally of the man), but notice “the woman” is not included as “the seed” of the devil. It seems that both the woman and her seed are in opposition to and therefore not under the dominion of the devil and “his seed,” i.e., all who have original sin and are “by nature children of wrath” as St. Paul puts it in Eph. 2:3. Here, we have in seed form (pun intended), the fact that the woman—Mary—would be without sin, especially original sin, just as her Son—the Messiah—would be. The emphasis on Mary is truly remarkable in that the future Messiah was only mentioned in relation to her. There can be little doubt that a parallel is being drawn between Jesus and Mary and their absolute opposition to the devil.

In-credible! The RC again examples he can see what he wants to if it can support his Roman religion. Note first that though I agree the seed of the women is Christ, both Hagar and Rebekah are said to have seed. (Gn. 16:10;24:60) . Meanwhile the Hebrew words in this entire verse actually only says, “put/place enmity/hostility between woman between seed seed it/he bruise head thou shalt bruise heel.” And much commentary has been written about how this is best translated and what it precisely means. Thus the “little doubt that a parallel is being drawn between Jesus and Mary” being both sinless is based upon a text for which there is much doubt about its precise rendering and meaning,

And while I agree with the text Staples quotes, yet nowhere does it say the women is uniquely different from the rest of mankind, as it only distinguishes between the seed of the devil and seed of Eve, which prophetically would be between the lost and Christ coming ultimately through Mary, or perhaps between demons and Christ. “Seed” is singular, but it can refer to a single line of decedents. And as Christ genealogy is full of souls who were lost at least at one time, the only exclusion of any seed that is not fallen is the sinless Christ. The seed of the women no more excludes her from being fallen then it does the parents of Mary.

Behind the Roman reasoning is the premise that a sinless vessel is essential for Christ to be sinless, but which is fallacious. 1 Sam.2:2 and Rev.15:4 states that there is "no one holy as the Lord" and "Thou only art Holy." Yet God used impure men to bring forth His pure expressive word to men, and if God could preserve Mary from sin then it is certain He could preserve Christ from being contaminated from the impurity of the vessel through which His body was supplied. For Hebrews 10:5 states that “Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me.”

And it is also argued, that "The human male determines the sex of the offspring. His entrance into the unfertilized egg of Mary caused it to develop without the expected duplication of the female X chromosomes. When an artificial egg duplicates its chromosomes in response to artificial stimulation. the result is female" D. Hocking from his Christology course (animal studies). And thus “The blood type of the Son of God was a separate and precious type unlike any other, it had no sin. Because of this method of conception, it is not possible that Mary could have supplied any of her Adamic blood for Jesus who was to be the spotless lamb of God.” “The Holy Spirit who is God, protected His sinlessness, as God the Son entered the womb and the egg of Mary and took upon Himself a human nature in addition to His divine nature (clothed himself in humanity Phil. 2:5-8). There was no change of nature but an addition, adding humanity to His deity.” (http://www.letusreason.org/rc11.htm)

I am not sure if I agree that the sin nature is dependent on the male seed, but if God can produce a male from a female virgin then He can certainly bring forth a perfect sinless male from a fallen vessel tainted by sin.

Note also here that Staples is not arguing for a binding, infallible interpretation of Gn. 3:15, while Pope Pius IX in Ineffabilis Deus (Latin for "Ineffable God") which defines the infallible (which presumed status only pertains to the actual pronouncement) dogma of the Immaculate Conception relies upon a Vulgate translation [and thus the Douay Rheims] of Gn. 3:15 which changed the “he” to “she shall crush thy head,” and thus that “the most holy Virgin” “was, with him and through him, eternally at enmity with the evil serpent, and most completely triumphed over him, and thus crushed his head with her immaculate foot.” (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm)

However, as the Catholic Encyclopedia (Immaculate Conception) states, The translation “she” of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. The conqueror from the seed of the woman, who should crush the serpent’s head, is Christ; the woman at enmity with the serpent is Mary. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm)

As with others, the official Roman Catholic Bible for America translates this,

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; They will strike at your head, while you strike at their heel.”

The approved notes (1970 ver.), while also noting the Traditional Messianic exegesis, explains this saying, “They will strike…at their heel: the antecedent for “they” and “their” is the collective noun “offspring,” i.e., all the descendants of the woman.” (http://old.usccb.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis3.htm)

RC apologist Jimmy Akin also states,
Q: Please explain to me how come the Douay-Rheims Gen 3:15 and the New American Bible Gen 3:15 differ. I’m sure you know what I am talking about.

...The reason for the difference in the renderings is a manuscript difference. Modern translations follow what the original Hebrew of the passage says. The Douay-Rheims, however, is following a manuscript variant found in many early Fathers and some editions of the Vulgate (but not the original; Jerome followed the Hebrew text in his edition of the Vulgate). The variant probably originated as a copyist error when a scribe failed to take note that the subject of the verse had shifted from the woman to the seed of the woman... just as the first half of the verse, speaking of the enmity between the serpent and the woman, has been applied to Mary, the second half, speaking of the head crushing and heel striking, has also been applied to Mary due to the manuscript variant, though it properly applies to Jesus, given the original Hebrew. (www.jimmyakin.com/mary-and-genesis-315)

The Anglican/Roman Catholic International Commission explains the controversy:

The Hebrew text of Genesis 3:15 speaks about enmity between the serpent and the woman, and between the offspring of both. The personal pronoun (hu’) in the words addressed to the serpent, “He will strike at your head”, is masculine. In the Greek translation used by the early Church (LXX), however, the personal pronoun autos (he) cannot refer to the offspring … but must refer to a masculine individual who could then be the Messiah, born of a woman. The Vulgate (mis)translates the clause as ipsa … This feminine pronoun supports a reading of this passage as referring to Mary which has become traditional in the Latin Church. (Source.)

The Neo-Vulgate (Nova Vulgata), the revised Latin version authorized by the Vatican, corrected the error and changed it from ipsa to ipsum in the Latin.

As a reformed source states, “He” .. in the original Hebrew is masculine. It is pronounced “hoo” and can also mean “it.” Many think it means “it” in reference to collective offspring of the woman crushing the head of the serpent. In the LXX, however, it is rendered autos “he,” indicating that the passage should be understood as a Messianic prophecy about Jesus Christ alone crushing the head. “He [Jesus] will crush the serpent’s head.” (http://reformedapologeticsministries.blogspot.com/2012/02/catholic-misuse-of-genesis-315.html)

More here.

The Hebrew Masoretic text reads that one who will crush the serpents head is in the masculine, speaking about Christ, and the NT does not mention Mary of doing this, but that “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he [Christ] also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.” (Hebrews 2:14,15) Glory be to God.

3. Mary, Ark of the Covenant: The Old Testament ark of the Covenant was a true icon of the sacred. It was a picture of the purity and holiness God fittingly demands of those objects and/or persons most closely associated with himself and the plan of salvation. Because it would contain the very presence of God symbolized by three types of the coming Messiah—the manna, the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s staff—it had to be most pure and untouched by sinful man (see II Sam. 6:1-9; Exodus 25:10ff; Numbers 4:15; Heb. 9:4).

In the New Testament, the new and true Ark would not be an inanimate object, but a person—the Blessed Mother. How much more pure would the new and true Ark be...

This is another attempt to glorify the creature rather than the Creator, God blessed for ever, as it is Christ who best fulfills the typology of the ark of the Covenant.

• God commanded Moses to “make an ark of shittim wood,” which wood represents the humanity of Christ, “And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, within and without shalt thou overlay it,” (Ex. 25:10,11) and which gold can be seen to glory. And thus the wise men brought gold as a gift to Christ (not Mary), and was girded about His loins and breast with a golden garment, (Dan. 10:5; Rv. 1:13) which also is never said of Mary.

• The Ark, once made, was moved via poles, so as not to be directly touched by sinful man (Ex. 25:12-16; II Sam. 6:1-9), yet which men Mary was touched by, as well as Christ. And the former was ritually defiled by giving birth, and thus observed the required days of purification, (Lk. 2:22-24; cf. Lv. 12:2,6-8) and then brought the required living creatures to the priest “for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest: Who shall offer it before the Lord, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood.” (Leviticus 12:6,7)

But the sanctity of the Ark corresponds to the spiritual purity of Christ, who being the Lamb of God is alone said to be “holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens,” (Hebrews 7:26) “Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth,” (1 Peter 2:22)For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Which is never said of Mary. Yet Catholics have the audacity to make Mary was sinless, even as binding doctrine, when Scripture nowhere teaches it, and we can be confident that it would say so if that was true, and especially if was a binding doctrine, just as it clearly records the sinlessness of Christ and other extraordinary or otherwise notable aspects of its subjects, even far lesser ones.

• And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold....And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end:...And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims (Exodus 25:17,19,22) On top of the ark was the mercy seat on which rested the cloud signifying the presence of God, between two cherubs of gold. The Greek word (Hebrews 9:5) for “mercy seat” is hilasterion, meaning “that which makes atonement.”

This easily corresponds to Matthew 17:4,5, in which Moses and Elijah, representing the the law and the prophets, can be seen to answer to the two cherubims, and who talk with Christ under a bright cloud, and in which context all are called to commune with Christ, the atonement: “While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him,” thus directly communing with God. (cf. Heb. 10:19) And which is said to Peter, James and John, whom Paul later states (Gal. 2:9) appeared to be pillars of the church (if not in that order), thus this call to directly commune with God via the mercy seat under the cloud is to the church.

• “And in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.” (Exodus 25:21)The Ark contained the 2 tables of the Law, which testimony in the NT becomes grace and Truth, and the Scriptures uniquely state Christ was “full of grace and Truth.” (Jn. 1:14) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (Jn 1:17)

And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it. (Joshua 3:3) And it was Christ, not Mary, who said “Follow me,” (Mt. 4:19) and “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me,” (John 10:27) as Christ alone was God manifest in the flesh. (Jn. 1:1-3,14; 20:28; 1Tim. 3:16)

• “And the ark of the covenant of the Lord went before them in the three days' journey, to search out a resting place for them.” (Numbers 10:33) And Christ, not Mary said,”I go to prepare a place for you.” (John 14:2)

Therefore it is Christ, not Mary who is clothed with gold, and declared to be undefiled, sinless, and the atonement/mercy seat, with two cherubs of glory on each side, by whom believers commune with God under the cloud of glory, and whom constrains the testimony of grace and Truth, and goes before believers.

And thus by God grace Staples compulsion of Scripture to support vain traditions of men is once again exposed, which he inventively adds to within the rest of his book (which is not dealt with here), promoting the Mariolatry of the false Mary of Catholicism, thinking of mortals above that which is written, (1Cor. 4:6) to his own condemnation and those who sadly subscribe to this. It is the Lord who is high and lifted up, not any Queen of Heaven, which is only found among pagans. But despite what Scripture says and fails to say, like the Catholics insist,

But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem...” (Jeremiah 44:17)



122 posted on 02/06/2015 8:27:00 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; ...

Ping to http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3253838/posts?page=122#122


123 posted on 02/06/2015 8:29:34 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

Great expose of the false teachings of Staples.


124 posted on 02/06/2015 8:40:43 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: daniel1212

Nicely done.

Hoss


125 posted on 02/06/2015 8:41:49 AM PST by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: daniel1212

PFL


126 posted on 02/06/2015 8:50:43 AM PST by Gamecock (Joel Osteen is a minister of the Gospel like 0bama is a POTUS.)
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To: Arthur McGowan; Salvation; metmom; CynicalBear; Elsie; daniel1212; NYer
AG....your own apologists that Salvation has links to admit there is NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THIS.

They even admit the catholic understanding of Luke 1:28 is wrong also.

There is also no appeal to the ECFs either.

The Catholic Encyclopedia online also admits to this.

So what's the appeal? Man-made hopes and wishes?

It's amazing that without firm Biblical support or the support of the ECFs that catholics continue in this deception away from clear Biblical teaching on how all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

I can only ask why?

127 posted on 02/06/2015 9:13:21 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone; Arthur McGowan; Salvation; metmom; Elsie; daniel1212
>>AG....your own apologists that Salvation has links to admit there is NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THIS.<<

It's astounding really. I was just reading through some of the written statements which admit no support from either scripture or the ECFs for so many of the Catholic beliefs. Yet they hold some of them as "requirements" or "obligations" for salvation and membership. It's obviously a man made religion.

128 posted on 02/06/2015 9:27:21 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear
It can only be a deception from the enemy to take our eyes off of Christ.

That's his whole purpose....to deceive.

129 posted on 02/06/2015 9:36:44 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: Arthur McGowan

Hmmm No links posted here.


130 posted on 02/06/2015 9:37:14 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ealgeone

What links? None here.


131 posted on 02/06/2015 9:38:11 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

the ones on your home page


132 posted on 02/06/2015 9:46:10 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone

I don’t think you checked them all.


133 posted on 02/06/2015 9:51:46 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: CynicalBear
false teachings of Staples.

Staples stapling a staples of Cath apologetics!

134 posted on 02/06/2015 10:09:15 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: HossB86

Thanks be to God


135 posted on 02/06/2015 10:09:35 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Salvation; Religion Moderator
I don’t think you checked them all.

Your home page link. http://www.freerepublic.com/~salvation/

Under Mary, the Mother of Jesus: Saint

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Immaculate Conception of Mary

From there to below:

From your post #6 on 5/11/2010 at 12:57:20 am in a thread you started on 05/11/2010 at 12:50:06 titled Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Immaculate Conception of Mary. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2510959/posts

You have a link to: The Catholic Encyclopdeia: Immaculate Conception (The Doctrine and Its Roots)

This is the url to the posting. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1297027/posts

As Rush says...don't doubt me.

Next question, please.

136 posted on 02/06/2015 10:55:39 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone; All
Please provide links to your first and fifth statements, and we will determine if the Religion Forum rules have been broken.

Here are some rules from my profile page, which you can access by clicking on my name at the bottom of this post:

Linking to Previous Posts on the Religion Forum:

The objective, on the Religion Forum, of not bringing forward disputes from prior threads is to discourage flame wars spreading, in particular the needling or badgering of other posters by bringing up their past remarks, again and again.

However, if you were to say “I recall your saying something else on an earlier thread” and the poster challenged you “Oh yeah, where?” then you would be obligated to link to the previous thread and I would not pull it.

If you want to argue the previous claim, then go back to the earlier thread, ping all the interested parties and say something like “Here you say the sky is green. Why?” The respondent will be obligated then to explain the green comment in context with that particular thread and parties involved in it.

If however you are seeking to “impeach the witness” by showing he waffles back and forth THAT is “making it personal” and I will pull it to avoid a flame war.

And if you are trying to embarrass another Freeper by recalling his inconvenient comments from prior threads, THAT is also "making it personal" and I will pull it to avoid a flame war.

A poster may quote himself from a prior thread. And he may link to articles he has previously posted. That is not "making it personal" - he is merely reasserting his own views. He may link to articles posted by others or other posters' remarks which are not part of any dispute, e.g. "You hit the nail on the head when you said..."

If however he is linking to an article posted by someone else - and that article was a "caucus" of which he was not a member - then I might pull the post anyway if I think it would have the affect of defeating the caucus label. Besides, he can always quote the source article directly without seemingly trying to work around the caucus protection.


137 posted on 02/06/2015 11:09:45 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator
I was only citing evidence to support my position that catholic apologists have made the very same statements I, and others, have made on this topic.

I cited Salvation's page because she has a ton of catholic links there from which I've done research. The only reason I pinged her is there is an understanding you are to ping someone when you mention their name.

There is no intent to embarrass her or anyone else. I'm merely citing catholic sources she has made available to refute a catholic position.

She said "I don't think you checked them all", so I posted the links to show she did have these and that I had checked them.

You have to follow the links as follows:

http://www.freerepublic.com/~salvation/

Under Mary, the Mother of Jesus: Saint

Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Immaculate Conception of Mary

From there to below:

From your post #6 on 5/11/2010 at 12:57:20 am in a thread you started on 05/11/2010 at 12:50:06 titled Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Immaculate Conception of Mary. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2510959/posts

You have a link to: The Catholic Encyclopdeia: Immaculate Conception (The Doctrine and Its Roots)

This is the url to the posting. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1297027/posts

I apologize for not being able to create the links. I'll have to play in the sandbox on that; but don't have the time right now.

138 posted on 02/06/2015 11:22:40 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

That is so true. I have learned so much and I could never be a member of a group like them. I believe in the Bible. Frankly, I never knew much about their beliefs until I started reading these threads.


139 posted on 02/06/2015 3:56:12 PM PST by MamaB
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To: ealgeone
Thank you for the additional information.

Your posts 127 and 128 are within the Religion Forum guideline.

The guideline exists to stop flamewars from spreading from thread to thread. The linked information must have a personal element to be disallowed. For instance, there is never a problem linking an article.

And there is no problem linking to one's own reply posts, since there is dispute involved.

Your reference was to a body of articles on another Freeper's profile page. Therefore it was within the guidelines, it was about the articles and not linking back to a particular dispute with another Freeper.

140 posted on 02/06/2015 8:12:19 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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