After the apostles died, was the gospel hopelessly lost until the Reformation?Posted on 01/24/2015 8:33:46 AM PST by RnMomof7
After the apostles died, was the gospel hopelessly lost until the Reformation?
That certainly seems to be a common assumption in some Protestant circles today. Thankfully, it is a false assumption.
I’m not entirely sure where that misconception started. But one thing I do know: it did not come from the Protestant Reformers.
The Reformers themselves (including Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and others) were convinced that their position was not only biblical, but also historical. In other words, they contended that both the apostles and the church fathers would have agreed with them on the heart of the gospel.
For example, the second-generation Lutheran reformer, Martin Chemnitz (1522-1586), wrote a treatise on justification in which he defended the Protestant position by extensively using the church fathers. And John Calvin (1509-1564), in his Institutes, similarly claimed that he could easily debunk his Roman Catholic opponents using nothing but patristic sources. Here’s what he wrote:
If the contest were to be determined by patristic authority, the tide of victory — to put it very modestly —would turn to our side. Now, these fathers have written many wise and excellent things. . . . [Yet] the good things that these fathers have written they [the Roman Catholics] either do not notice, or misrepresent or pervert. . . . But we do not despise them [the church fathers]; in fact, if it were to our present purpose, I could with no trouble at all prove that the greater part of what we are saying today meets their approval.
Source: John Calvin, “Prefatory Address to King Francis I of France,” The Institutes of the Christian Religion, Section 4.
How could the Reformers be so confident that their understanding of the gospel was consistent with the teachings of the ancient church? Or perhaps more to the point: What did the early church fathers have to say about the gospel of grace?
Here is an admittedly brief collection of 30 patristic quotes, centering on the reality that justification is by grace alone through faith alone. Many more could be provided. But I think you’ll be encouraged by this survey look at the gospel according to the church fathers.
(Even if you don’t read every quote, just take a moment to consider the fact that, long before Luther, the leaders of the ancient church were clearly proclaiming the gospel of grace through faith in Christ.)
1. Clement of Rome (30-100): “And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.”
Source: Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, 32.4.
2. Epistle to Diognetus (second century): “He gave His own Son as a ransom for us, the holy One for transgressors, the blameless One for the wicked, the righteous One for the unrighteous, the incorruptible One for the corruptible, the immortal One for them that are mortal. For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! That the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors!”
Source: The Epistle to Diognetus, 9.2-5.
3. Justin Martyr (100-165) speaks of “those who repented, and who no longer were purified by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of an heifer, or by the offerings of fine flour, but by faith through the blood of Christ, and through His death.”
Source: Justin, Dialogue with Trypho, 13.
4. Origen (185-254): “For God is just, and therefore he could not justify the unjust. Therefore he required the intervention of a propitiator, so that by having faith in Him those who could not be justified by their own works might be justified.”
Source: Origen, Commentary on Romans, 2.112.
5. Origen (again): “A man is justified by faith. The works of the law can make no contribution to this. Where there is no faith which might justify the believer, even if there are works of the law these are not based on the foundation of faith. Even if they are good in themselves they cannot justify the one who does them, because faith is lacking, and faith is the mark of those who are justified by God.”
Source: Origen, Commentary on Romans, 2.136.
6. Hilary of Poitiers (300-368): “Wages cannot be considered as a gift, because they are due to work, but God has given free grace to all men by the justification of faith.”
Source: Hilary, Commentary on Matthew (on Matt. 20:7)
7. Hilary of Poitiers (again): “It disturbed the scribes that sin was forgiven by a man (for they considered that Jesus Christ was only a man) and that sin was forgiven by Him whereas the Law was not able to absolve it, since faith alone justifies.”
Source: Hilary, Commentary on Matthew (on Matt. 9:3)
8. Didymus the Blind (c. 313-398) “A person is saved by grace, not by works but by faith. There should be no doubt but that faith saves and then lives by doing its own works, so that the works which are added to salvation by faith are not those of the law but a different kind of thing altogether.”[31]
Source: Didymus the Blind. Commentary on James, 2:26b.
9. Basil of Caesarea (329-379): “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is justified solely by faith in Christ.”
Source: Basil, Homily on Humility, 20.3.
10. Jerome (347–420): “We are saved by grace rather than works, for we can give God nothing in return for what he has bestowed on us.”
Source: Jerome, Epistle to the Ephesians, 1.2.1.
11. John Chrysostom (349-407): “For Scripture says that faith has saved us. Put better: Since God willed it, faith has saved us. Now in what case, tell me, does faith save without itself doing anything at all? Faith’s workings themselves are a gift of God, lest anyone should boast. What then is Paul saying? Not that God has forbidden works but that he has forbidden us to be justified by works. No one, Paul says, is justified by works, precisely in order that the grace and benevolence of God may become apparent.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Ephesians, 4.2.9.
12. John Chrysostom (again): “But what is the ‘law of faith?’ It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans, 7.27.
13. John Chrysostom (again): “God allowed his Son to suffer as if a condemned sinner, so that we might be delivered from the penalty of our sins. This is God’s righteousness, that we are not justified by works (for then they would have to be perfect, which is impossible), but by grace, in which case all our sin is removed.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians, 11.5.
14. John Chrysostom (again): “Everywhere he puts the Gentiles upon a thorough equality. ‘And put no difference between us and them, having purified their hearts by faith.’ (v. 9.) From faith alone, he says, they obtained the same gifts. This is also meant as a lesson to those (objectors); this is able to teach even them that faith only is needed, not works nor circumcision.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Acts, 32 (regarding Acts 15:1)
15. John Chrysostom (again): “What then was it that was thought incredible? That those who were enemies, and sinners, neither justified by the law, nor by works, should immediately through faith alone be advanced to the highest favor. Upon this head accordingly Paul has discoursed at length in his Epistle to the Romans, and here again at length. “This is a faithful saying,” he says, “and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Timothy, 4.1.
16. John Chrysostom (again): “”For it is most of all apparent among the Gentiles, as he also says elsewhere, ‘And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy.’ (Romans 15:9.) For the great glory of this mystery is apparent among others also, but much more among these. For, on a sudden, to have brought men more senseless than stones to the dignity of Angels, simply through bare words, and faith alone, without any laboriousness, is indeed glory and riches of mystery: just as if one were to take a dog, quite consumed with hunger and the mange, foul, and loathsome to see, and not so much as able to move, but lying cast out, and make him all at once into a man, and to display him upon the royal throne.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Colossians, 5.2.
17. John Chrysostom (again): “Now since the Jews kept turning over and over the fact, that the Patriarch, and friend of God, was the first to receive circumcision, he wishes to show, that it was by faith that he too was justified. And this was quite a vantage ground to insist upon. For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely. But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans, 8.1.
18. Augustine (354-430): “If Abraham was not justified by works, how was he justified? The apostle goes on to tell us how: What does scripture say? (that is, about how Abraham was justified). Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (Rom. 4:3; Gen. 15:6). Abraham, then, was justified by faith. Paul and James do not contradict each other: good works follow justification.”
Source: Augustine, Exposition 2 of Psalm 31, 2-4.
19. Augustine (again): “When someone believes in him who justifies the impious, that faith is reckoned as justice to the believer, as David too declares that person blessed whom God has accepted and endowed with righteousness, independently of any righteous actions (Rom 4:5-6). What righteousness is this? The righteousness of faith, preceded by no good works, but with good works as its consequence.”
Source: Augustine, Exposition 2 of Psalm 31, 6-7.
20. Ambrosiaster (fourth century): “God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
Source: Ambrosiaster, Commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:4.
21. Ambrosiaster (again): “They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
Source: Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Romans 3:24.
22. Ambrosiaster (again): “Paul tells those who live under the law that they have no reason to boast basing themselves on the law and claiming to be of the race of Abraham, seeing that no one is justified before God except by faith.”
Source: Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Romans 3:27.
23. Ambrosiaster (again): “God gave what he promised in order to be revealed as righteous. For he had promised that he would justify those who believe in Christ, as he says in Habakkuk: ‘The righteous will live by faith in me’ (Hab. 2:4). Whoever has faith in God and Christ is righteous.”
Source: Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Paul’s Epistles; CSEL 81 ad loc.
24. Marius Victorinus (fourth century): “The fact that you Ephesians are saved is not something that comes from yourselves. It is the gift of God. It is not from your works, but it is God’s grace and God’s gift, not from anything you have deserved. … We did not receive things by our own merit but by the grace and goodness of God.”
Source: Marius Victorinus, Epistle to the Ephesians, 1.2.9.
25. Prosper of Aquitaine (390–455): “And just as there are no crimes so detestable that they can prevent the gift of grace, so too there can be no works so eminent that they are owed in condign [deserved] judgment that which is given freely. Would it not be a debasement of redemption in Christ’s blood, and would not God’s mercy be made secondary to human works, if justification, which is through grace, were owed in view of preceding merits, so that it were not the gift of a Donor, but the wages of a laborer?”
Source: Prosper of Acquitaine, Call of All Nations, 1.17
26. Theodoret of Cyrus (393–457): “The Lord Christ is both God and the mercy seat, both the priest and the lamb, and he performed the work of our salvation by his blood, demanding only faith from us.”
Source: Theodoret of Cyrus, Interpretation of the Letter to the Romans; PG 82 ad loc.
27. Theodoret of Cyrus (again): “All we bring to grace is our faith. But even in this faith, divine grace itself has become our enabler. For [Paul] adds, ‘And this is not of yourselves but it is a gift of God; not of works, lest anyone should boast’ (Eph. 2:8–9). It is not of our own accord that we have believed, but we have come to belief after having been called; and even when we had come to believe, He did not require of us purity of life, but approving mere faith, God bestowed on us forgiveness of sins”
Source: Theodoret of Cyrus, Interpretation of the Fourteen Epistles of Paul; FEF 3:248–49, sec. 2163.
28. Cyril of Alexandria (412-444): “For we are justified by faith, not by works of the law, as Scripture says. By faith in whom, then, are we justified? Is it not in Him who suffered death according to the flesh for our sake? Is it not in one Lord Jesus Christ?”
Source: Cyril of Alexandria, Against Nestorius, 3.62
29. Fulgentius (462–533): “The blessed Paul argues that we are saved by faith, which he declares to be not from us but a gift from God. Thus there cannot possibly be true salvation where there is no true faith, and, since this faith is divinely enabled, it is without doubt bestowed by his free generosity. Where there is true belief through true faith, true salvation certainly accompanies it. Anyone who departs from true faith will not possess the grace of true salvation.”
Source: Fulgentius, On the Incarnation, 1; CCL 91:313.
30. Bede (673-735): “Although the apostle Paul preached that we are justified by faith without works, those who understand by this that it does not matter whether they live evil lives or do wicked and terrible things, as long as they believe in Christ, because salvation is through faith, have made a great mistake. James here expounds how Paul’s words ought to be understood. This is why he uses the example of Abraham, whom Paul also used as an example of faith, to show that the patriarch also performed good works in the light of his faith. It is therefore wrong to interpret Paul in such a way as to suggest that it did not matter whether Abraham put his faith into practice or not. What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, because the gift of justification comes only from faith.”
Source: Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.
We know wherever Jesus was that day, there too was the thief...therefore...
"we now need to locate Paradise. In II Corinthians 12:1-5, Paul speaks of one whom he knew who had marvelous visions and revelations from the Lord. In a vision he was "caught up to the third heaven"—God's throne! "He was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." Paradise, then, is located in the presence of God's throne."
"In various passages, the Bible describes Paradise. Revelation 2:7 says, "To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God" (American Standard Version). Observe that the tree of life is in the Paradise of God."
"Revelation 22:1-2 refer to "the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God" (Revelation 21:2, ASV). In this city, we find "a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life. . . ." (ASV). The New Jerusalem contains the tree of life. In the New Jerusalem, then, is the Paradise of God."
http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/BQA/k/248/Did-Thief-on-Cross-Go-Heaven-with-Jesus-Christ-Luke-2343.htm)
Why, yes I have...
In fact, 3 plus years ago, LDSLiving.Com had a Mormon "fave hymn" contest...and, per the Mormon mag, "Come, Thou Fount was the most requested write-in hymn from round one of voting..."
{A&E} 'Favoritest' Hymn of All Winner! [Two Fave Lds Hymns penned by Baptists!]
I posted that article in an FR thread about three years ago...and pointed out -- surprise, surprise -- that the two most "fave" Mormon hymns (one of those being Come, Thou Fount were written by Baptists!!!
I then added in the thread this link for Robinson: Robert Robinson (Baptist)
1010rd: "Most apostasy occurs for 'good' human reasons."
Did you REALLY just say that? REALLY?
(Yeah, folks. We apparently have an apologist for apostasy, attempting to make light of it by dismissing the outright rebelliousness of REAL apostasy)
Now why would such a poster do that?
(Well ask him for his reasonings here)
However, I DO know that if I was a Mormon...
...And claimed that 100% of the founding fathers of this country were "apostates"
-- as Mormon doctrine teaches...
...And that the Christian hymn-writers who constructed 53% of the hymns within the Mormon hymnal (190 of 358) -- were likewise surprisingly written off as "apostates"...
...well, hey...
... ya just GOTTA somehow "soften" the harsh labeling that Joseph Smith unloaded upon Christians and the Christian denominations...
You know what I mean?
I mean...here...
...in THE MOST important section of peculiar Mormon "scripture" (referenced as their "first vision")... ...We find in this so-called "vision"...
...Joseph Smith CLAIMING these unnamed entities appeared to him, AND condemned Christians as follows:
(Smith had gone) "to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that ALL were wrong) and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join NONE of them, for they were ALL wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were ALL corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
Mormon 'scriptural' source: Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith History - chapter 1
Now Mormonism labels this passage as absolute "scripture" for them!
Don't ya just love these Mormons? (Like 1010RD)
On the one hand, Mormonism bashes us Christians as "apostates"...
...even beloved hymn-writers like Baptist hymn-writer Robert Robinson...
...YET Mormonism is so "inclusive" that they ensured that over HALF of their Mormon hymnal was written by us "apostates"...! (Woo-hoo!)
(Christians...could you imagine over HALF of your hymnals being written by people your leaders have deemed to be "apostates?")
After all, concludes 1010RD, "Most apostasy" -- including those hymn-writers like Robinson -- occurred "for 'good' human reasons."
Don't ya just feel all bubbly inside?
It’s your way.
Once or twice...
**Respond to my post**
I have, and will again.
**You also did not deal with your major impediment: that if we are saved by our merits or works, it is not by grace, because grace is not provided as debt for labor provided or for the merits of an individual. It is given gratuitously.**
**This mercy is explicitly without any notice of man’s merits, whether foreseen or possible, but entirely on the mercy of God alone.**
You seem to think I don’t understand free, undeserved, gifts from God. I pointed out God’s gift to Abraham and his obedience, but I offer you another example:
You know the parable of the wedding (Matt. 22:1-14), where FINALLY the king has found guests that accept the invitation. These guests know they’ve been invited because a messenger bid them to come. And, since it is a wedding, they know that a wedding garment is appropriate. Of course, you know that the one guest shows up without a wedding garment.
I know you are also aware of the marriage of the Lamb (Rev. 19:7-9), and the ‘fine linen’, which ‘the righteousness of the saints’ (righteousness that is imputed by the blood of Christ).
Here is the grace of God:
He, by messenger, invites you to the wedding. You can’t earn the invite. It’s a gift. You already knew that you would need a wedding garment when attending a wedding. But to this wedding, you can’t make, rent, or buy a wedding garment that is good enough. No problem, for the host has sent the wedding garment with his messenger.
There you have it. Free invite to the wedding, with a free wedding garment supplied.
NOW, your part. You HAVE to put it on and wear it. You can’t regard it as important, but not necessary. It is MANDATORY.
Paul, writing to the saints at Galatia, said, “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Gal. 3:27
My first 28 yrs were as a Calvinist. This is basically the salvation message they preach: Hear the messenger, accept the invite, and know that the wedding garment is automatically put on when one utters outloud an acceptance of the invite.
The Spirit is the ‘chariot’ that gets you there (the power of the resurrection). Calvinists (and others) teach that the ‘chariot is there even though you can’t hear it.
But, Jesus Christ says that you WILL hear it.
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ IS for the remission of sins...........because he said so.
In other words, the mercy of God is not enough if the will of man does not go with it. Augustine refutes this here in his analysis of Rom 9:16:
“And further, should any one be inclined to boast, not indeed of his works, but of the freedom of his will, as if the first merit belonged to him, this very liberty of good action being given to him as a reward he had earned, let him listen to this same preacher of grace, when he says: “For it is God which works in you, both to will and to do of His own good pleasure;” (Php 2:13) and in another place: “So, then, it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.” (Rom 9:16) Now as, undoubtedly, if a man is of the age to use his reason, he cannot believe, hope, love, unless he will to do so, nor obtain the prize of the high calling of God unless he voluntarily run for it; in what sense is it not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy, except that, as it is written, “the preparation of the heart is from the Lord?” Otherwise, if it is said, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy, because it is of both,” that is, both of the will of man and of the mercy of God, so that we are to understand the saying, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy,” as if it meant the will of man alone is not sufficient, if the mercy of God go not with it—then it will follow that the mercy of God alone is not sufficient, if the will of man go not with it; and therefore, if we may rightly say, it is not of man that wills, but of God that shows mercy, because the will of man by itself is not enough, why may we not also rightly put it in the converse way: “It is not of God that shows mercy, but of man that wills,” because the mercy of God by itself does not suffice? Surely, if no Christian will dare to say this, “It is not of God that shows mercy, but of man that wills,” lest he should openly contradict the apostle, it follows that the true interpretation of the saying, “It is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy,” is that the whole work belongs to God, who both makes the will of man righteous, and thus prepares it for assistance, and assists it when it is prepared.” (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 32)
We know that Christ opened the gates of Hades and therefore the dead to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We know that paradise isn’t Heaven, despite the poor analysis you provide.
What then is the 1st and 2nd Heaven, if there’s a 3rd Heaven?
http://biblehub.com/niv/2_corinthians/12.htm
1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4That he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5Of such one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in my infirmities. 6For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or what he heareth from me.
7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9And he said to me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
What then is the 1st and 2nd Heaven, if there’s a 3rd Heaven?
And He Himself [Jesus Christ]appointed some to be Apostles, some to be Prophets, some to be evangelists, some to be pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints, to the work of serving, to the building up of the body of Christ; till we all of us arrive at oneness in faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, and at mature manhood and the stature of full-grown men in Christ.
The first thing you might notice is that Christ must appoint the officers/officials of his church. This is clearly emphasized in Hebrews 5:4
http://biblehub.com/hebrews/5-4.htm
No man can take this honor upon himself or have it granted by another man via a graduation certificate, etc. Authority matters to God.
Before we delve into what the Bible has to say about the offices, let’s first look at the purposes as stated in Ephesians.
For this Young’s Literal is especially edifying: unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ,
http://biblehub.com/ephesians/4-12.htm
The three-fold mission of the Church is iterated clearly as:
1. Perfecting the Saints
2. Missionary work
3. Building up the body of Christ (which as you know, said Christ opened the Gates of Hades)
#2 “for a work of ministration is best understood by knowing the Greek diakonía ("ministry") specifically refers to Spirit-empowered service guided by faith. The “Spirit-empowered service guided by faith” must be the spreading of the Gospel. What more better service could one man do for another than to share the Good News?
What about the necessary offices of the True Church of Jesus Christ as named in the Bible?
They are named as:
1. Apostles
2. Prophets
3. Evangelists
4. pastors
5. teachers
6. deacons
Do they have special roles?
Apostles are special witnesses of Jesus Christ, particularly his resurrection. You’ll likely recall from the Book of Mark that the first lie told about Christ’s resurrection was that it was fake. The witness that Christ lives is a critical one.
Prophets perform the function as you’d expect as an astute reader of God’s Holy Word.
Evangelists prove a sticky wicket for some. The Greek can bring some clarification: euaggelistḗs (from euaggelízō, "evangelize") – properly, an "evangelist"; someone with a vocational calling from God to announce the good news of the Gospel (see Eph 4:11).
Note Bene the call must come from God, but what is this ‘good news’? God saves individually. There is no group Salvation by Christ. It is one to one. So an Evangelist would bring the good news of the Gospel to… you personally.
Pastor/Overseer/Bishop is a role that is self-explanatory in that they watch over groups of Christ’s flock. Teachers is self-explanatory and Deacons is an errand runner and another office that an Elder in Christ’s Church may hold.
As for prophetesses, I don't know much about that. The Bible is fairly silent on women's roles in the Church. Take a look at 1 Corinthians 11:4-5 where reference is given to both men and women prophesying.
4Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.
http://biblehub.com/context/1_corinthians/11-4.htm
I suspect our modern understanding is flawed in this case. Prophesying means forthtelling which reveals the mind (message) of God in a particular situation.
As you can see from above it is closely conjoined with prayer and I suspect may be the natural outcome of that conversation with the Divine. In this case, the personal response of God to prayer for an individual, married couple, family, etc. as they go about trying to live godly lives in a wicked world. The world of the NT was extremely wicked.
Do women prophesy in your church?
Well...
...according to Mormonism...
HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):
SALVATION: A word that Mormons qualify in one of three ways: unconditional or general salvation is simply resurrection from the dead, granted to all through Christ's atonement; conditional or individual salvation involves entering the celestial kingdom through works of Mormonism; full salvation means exaltation to become a God as a result of temple ceremonies and other works. The word 'salvation' can have a two-fold meaning: a) forgiveness of sins and b) universal resurrection:
The Mormons have several different levels of "salvation".
mego
You prove my point.
Are the stars in the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd heaven?
Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Is God amongst the stars?
I don't see any popes or priests in your list. What's up with that?
And again.
1010...let's start with #6 & move up, shall we?
Deacons...The apostle Paul also wrote 1 Timothy 3:12:
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
The Mormon Church has 12 yo deacons!!! (How is that a "restoration" of the NT church?)
Do Mormons marry off their 12 yo boys? Do they have children at age 12? Do they "rule households" at age 12? Really?
#4 Pastors...
THERE ARE NO --as in "zero" -- titled "pastors" in the Mormon Church!!!
#3 evangelists...
Since you say one the church purposes is "mission work," tell you what? I'll make a point over the next 2 days and count up the Mormon missionary training manual I've read and then come back to tell you how many times the manual mentions the word "proselytize" or "proselyte" or some variation...and how the Mormon Church routinely and intentionally uses that word in place of "evangelize" or "evangelist"...
I rarely see the Mormon church use the word "evangelism"...vs. proselytism.
#2..."prophets"...
1010, the last time I opened up a copy of a Mormon KJV Bible or Quad ... the following two verses from Hebrews 1:1 and 2 were in there:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake
Tell us, 1010, exactly how long have you had this basic problem of not knowing the basic definitions of "time PAST" versus "THESE LAST DAYS"???
And, since, in effect, Jesus is THE eternal "prophet," why do you keep putting mere men up on a pedestal replacing Him in that role???
#1...apostles...
Yes, God gave us apostles.
(a) "The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (rev. 21:14)
(b)Tell us 1010...if there's been gobs of apostles thru the generations, why are there only "12" on the heavenly wall?
(c) Rev. 2:2 tells us: "that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not," -- yes many church bodies have "apostles" & claim to be a "restored" church...but "apostles (they)...are not" says John the Revelator. (Paul says same thing in 2 Cor 11:13 re counterfeit "apostles")
(d) Jude, Jesus' half brother, said "But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold." (Past tense...Not...listen to what your apostles ARE foretelling...present tense)
(e) I'll elaborate on this point more in my next post...the key questions to jumpstart this point are:
Was Barnabas an "apostle?" (yes, no, "I don't know" would suffice for an answer)
Secondly, did being an "apostle" in the early church always make you an "apostle" unto EVERYBODY -- universal-like -- in the early Church? (yes, no, "I don't know," "I haven't thought about it" would suffice as responses)
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Now, since you are apparently big on "church office titles" as some sort of "evidence" of what constitutes a "New Testament restoration church"...please enlighten us if you will...
Lds church leaders officially reference themselves as:
..."general authorities?" (Where is that found in the Bible?)
...What about "stake presidents?" Is that "scriptural?"
...Or "high councilors?"
Exactly Where do we find any of these titled leaders mentioned above in the New Testament?
Where is "president" in the New Testament? (That's a distinctly American term coined by George Washington himself...so the Mormon god follows George?)
And while we're at it, re: "Wards?" Where are those to be found in the Bible?
Where is "temple recommend" in any standard work?
(I mean, we can't even locate LDS' teaching of a supposed retrogression of Heavenly Father tracing him back to being some mere man somewhere in time!!!)
And here we thought the LDS church is "restorative"???
**In other words, the mercy of God is not enough if the will of man does not go with it.**
You seem to be the one limiting God. How can God remit your sins if you won’t obey his words in Acts 2:38?
**Augustine refutes this here in his analysis of Rom 9:16:**
I don’t know if Augustine knew it or not, but his quoting: “For it is God which works in you, both to will and to do of His own good pleasure;” (Php 2:13), shows Paul teaching souls that are already born again (Php 1:1). That’s the context of Romans as well (which I’ve pointed out several times).
Predestination or not, here is more for you to critque:
“While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the day of provocation”. Heb. 3:15
God promised them the land. All they had to do was go up and possess it (oops, they had to DO something).
Caleb had faith in God’s promise. I’m sure that you know what he said: “Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.” Num. 13:30.
Did Caleb ‘merit’ the promised land? Call it what you want, but he believed and obeyed. If God predestined him to have such strong faith, so be it. He made the EFFORT to spy out the land, and was willing to make the EFFORT to take it. If God predestined him to make the effort, so be it.
God promises remission of sins when one is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Will you make the effort?
God’s mercy comes without our obedience. How else would a preacher ever come and preach the gospel to the lost? It is then that God expects a positive response to his will. Acts 2:38 is God’s will (and I don’t recall if you posted any comments on that verse by Augustine).
You seem VERY confused, saying we are not robots, but then picking out verses and commentaries that imply the opposite;....that we have no will of our own to make our own choices. If you believe that God directs our will to be obedient to his, that’s fine. He is directing you to obey Acts 2:38. If you choose not to obey it, then by your theology, you were predestined not to.
“So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.” Heb. 3:19
If they had believed God, they would have gotten off their butts, gone up, and possessed the land that was promised to them.
Ironically you limit God, because it makes Him as wanting to remit your sins, but not being able to do it. By the way, are you actually Catholic? Or are you the crazy guy who denies the Trinity? I'm willing to talk to you if you're a Papist (easy pickings), but if you're the crazy guy I think you are (I've forgotten his username), then discussing with you is a wild goosechase. Judging by your responses, my money is on you not being a rational individual.
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