Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[ealgeone]

The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.

[Springfield Reformer]

What our friends on the other side of the Tiber need to realize is that a grammatical term like “perfect” doesn’t refer to anything beyond the temporal state of the action. It does nothing to tell you details internal to the action itself.

For example, if I say “my basement was flooded,” period, ths is like the Greek aorist, which just sets down a point in time and boom you’re done.

But if I say “my basement was flooded, and remains so to this day,” I have expressed the sense of the perfect tense, which establishes that some state occurred at a particular point in time, and though the action is complete, the effect continues until now.

But what this “perfect” does not express is how much water there was in my basement. It does not mean my basement was “perfectly filled” with water. Maybe there was only an inch. Maybe it was waist deep. You can’t tell a quantity from the perfect. It’s not about quantity. It’s about placing events in time.

So too with ke-charitomene. We know this is the perfect because of the doubling of the first syllable, sort of like an intentional stutter to signal the perfect, ke-keritomene. What we DON’T have is any sort of qualitative indicator on grace, as we do in John 1:14, where “full of grace” is explicit. Instead, what we have in Luke is that this grace/favor was shown to her at some indeterminate point in the past and that it continues to the present.

Hopefully Akin’s comment, cited in your post, suggests that this amateurish tactic is in it’s waning days. Certainly there are more significant arguments to be undertaken, and Akin seems to get that, at least in regard to this issue, and that’s a good thing.

Peace,

SR

[verga]

Well said

[Mrs. Don-o]

Michael Voris on "The Jews"

Happy New Year,CynicalBear.

[GBA]

Thanks for all you wrote. As a point of clarity regarding point of view, "touched by God" can and does describe and cover a wide variety of things/events that would all qualify, but vary in degree.

Going back to my own logic, in no way would I describe any "touched by God" encounter I've read or heard about as being on the same level as what Mary experienced in her lifetime.

While it is right and proper to rely upon the written Word of God as recorded in Scripture, all things God didn't and doesn't end with those written words.

His miracles haven't stopped, only the ones He did while still in flesh, alive in His earthy, physical body, came to an end, as he told the Pharisees.

One of His miracles, to me, is Mary and, from what I've read and heard so far, Mary's visitations around the world are not uncommon and some are rather famous.

Fatima, for example, has been declared the real deal and been given the official seal of authenticity and what was revealed has since occurred and thus been verified by history.

Garabandal, called "the sequel to Fatima", is another site of Mary's visitations and the most compelling of them all, in my humble opinion.

Why? Because of The Purification.

The journey of and to faith, belief, acceptance, trust, etc. are all personal for each of us, and with the right sort of spirit, the Holy Spirit will help with each and all.

On the other hand, that so many of us choose to divide and fight so about Holy things makes me question what is behind that hostility, name calling, etc. and makes me think of Pharisees instead of Christians while I speculate about the real motivator behind it.

Only one being benefits from our fighting. I see no need to help the enemy while hurting myself, along with any who may be paying attention and get caught up in the fighting and hostility.

[redleghunter]

And Trent threw Orange under the bus. As I pointed out several times.

So which council is the correct teaching and authority?

Or do you see the Christian faith as one that is evolving over time?

[CynicalBear]

Wow! That was pathetic. There is a guy who is totally clueless on prophesy. If that is what you are listening to rather than judiciously study scripture I would suggest a change.

[CynicalBear]

Oh, and a happy and enlightening New Year to you!

[af_vet_1981]

I feel a leading from the Holy Spirit to speak on topics dealing with my former religious identity much like former Mormons or others do here.

The words "I feel" warn me. Do you consider yourself a prophetess ?

I think you would know Catholics say "I believe" (Apostles Creed) or " We believe" (Nicene Creed) when publicly proclaiming faith. I cannot even find "I feel" in any KJV verse, albeit it could appear in more modern translations. I know many of your own poets have used it, notably Carole King, Richie Havens, and the Allman Brothers Band.

Even Jews are taught to say "I believe" as well as "I hope."

12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah, and, though he tarry, I will wait daily for his coming.

13. I believe with perfect faith that there will be a resurrection of the dead at the time when it shall please the Creator, blessed be his name, and exalted be the remembrance of him for ever and ever.

For thy salvation I hope, O Lord! I hope, O Lord, for thy salvation! O Lord, for thy salvation I hope!

And now remains faith, hope, and love.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Actually I rarely tune in to Michael Voris. But I do know that Rabbinical Judaism is quite a different religion from Temple Judaism, since not only do they have no Temple, no Sacrifice, no Priesthood, they also have no longing expectation of the true Messiah, as the true Temple Jews did (e.g. Simeon and Anna.) Old Judaism, the true Temple Jews, recognized Him; the neo-religion, the Rabbinical Jews, rejected Him.

And now they have their Talmud which they study and honor more than the Torah itself.

Even the Haredim don't think today's (secular-democratic) Israel, the "Jewish State," has anything to do with the true restoration of Israel. It is a false presence of the Kingdom.

In all this, no disrespect is meant toward any particular Jews as people. God bless the Jews forever. I am referring to systems (revering Talmud instead of Christ) and states (erecting nuclear-armed socialist democracies and trusting in that instead of in their Messiah).

Nor do I write with any sense of religious triumphalism. What a poor example I am!

[daniel1212]

Do not forget Joseph in the life of Christ as well. I think he gets short changed. Joseph was a righteous man as noted by Matthew.

Indeed. If Mary did have a unique continent marriage contrary to its description of leave and cleave, then i think Joseph should get more credit, as it normally i think it would be far harder for the male. Kind of like having a wedding cake in the refer but never eating it.

[Mark17]

Thank you for being the only ex-Catholic to answer, and to do so with out being insulting.

You are welcome. All I can do, is revert back to my own experience. I am thankful, that the nuns and priests told me about Jesus and the doctrine of the Trinity. I just have a more intimate understanding of it now. I hope you experience the peace that passes all understanding, the peace that comes from knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt, that my name is written in the Lamb's book of life. Later bro.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

REALLY? From the Same folks who point to OT verses about mary?

I don't understand your reply. Maybe I didn't make my point clear.

My point was this:

It is impossible for any passage in the Bible to refer to the Bible as a whole.

Why?

Because the Bible, from the Greek Biblia, meaning books, was not compiled or canonized until centuries after the individual books of the Bible were written.

For example, in the book of Revelation, John warns, "...if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book." He was speaking of the book or scroll that he was writing. He could not have been referring to the Bible as a whole, since the Bible as a whole did not as yet exist.

Similarly, Paul is referring to the Old Testament, not the Old and New Testaments, when he says, "from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." He couldn't be referring to the New Testament, since many NT books were yet to be written.

Therefore, you can't use any passage in the Bible to prove Luther's doctrine of the Bible as the sole, or ultimate, rule of faith, since no passage in the Bible refers to the Bible as a whole.

[daniel1212]

Some, or many RCs here are closer to SSPX or SSPV in this issue (or are of them), and also support the killing of such as us in the past, and likely if a RC government today had the jurisdiction and power. Or they otherwise advocate it.

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. (Galatians 4:29)

[verga]

Thank you for posting this.

[Mark17]

Paul was converted instantly, once it was God’s time. I imagine you were too :-)

You are correct sir. It was all in God's time. I am sure He was not surprised at my salvation experience. If there were any angles watching, they might have been surprised, and maybe they had previously thought, there was no hope for me. But then again, God can do wonders with worthless, useless, hopeless people. I am living proof.

:-)

[Rides_A_Red_Horse]

There is no question about that. The reason to pray to saints in not to bypass the Mediator but to get to Him.

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So you believe you need a mediator to get to the Mediator?

[daniel1212]

But don’t ever think they deify her right?

In Catholicism, terms such as the “unanimous consent” of the fathers , "unbroken," and "worship," can be defined as needed to absolve her of error.

Thus as said, bowing down to a statute and attributing to the person it represent attributes and glory that are uniquely ascribed to God/Christ in Scripture, including the power to hear in Heaven incessant multitudinous mental prayers addressed to them from earth and respond to them, and imploring such for heavenly aid, cannot be understood as idolatry though it would be in Scripture, but it is explained as merely being "hyperdulia," and not "latria" (which Rome states is the manner of adoration reserved for God).

[Rides_A_Red_Horse]

The saints are with me in my closet.

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I’m not gonna go there...

[ealgeone]

Similarly, Paul is referring to the Old Testament, not the Old and New Testaments, when he says, "from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." He couldn't be referring to the New Testament, since many NT books were yet to be written.

Is it within the realm of possibility that Paul had a little more insight on this topic when he wrote those words? Possibly knowing that what he was writing was Scripture and that the other books of the NT would be as well.

[Rides_A_Red_Horse]

I showed you all how Protestant doctrines have no basis in the Holy Scripture and explained all aspects of the Catholic faith agreeing with scripture.

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With help from the saints in your closet?