Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[ealgeone]

The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.

[boatbums]

But your dichotomy between faith and evidence is intriguing. I do not see the two as in conflict, but as reinforcing each other, as stated above. Thomas wanted evidence, because he wanted a reason to believe. The Pharisees demanded a sign, because they were looking for an excuse to disbelieve. When reason has innocent motives and good information, it can perform a godly and useful service, up to and including demonstrating our love for God. When it is merely a tool to further rebellion, it will only lead to dark places, no matter how brilliantly executed.

Thank you for your well reasoned comments.

[boatbums]

But what evil lives within us is still there, even if it does not come fully to the surface. This is the gravity of our sin with which Paul is wrestling in Romans 3. He's not issuing fuzzy-edged generalizations. He's making sure we understand that every man woman and child that came forth from Adam is under the curse of sin. It is a dark and all inclusive shroud, and we are all trapped within it if we are human. The only exception, by way of incarnation of God Himself, is Jesus.

I might add that, when God talks about the sin nature of man in places such as Jeremiah 17:9, The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? as well as Romans 3 and other places, He is addressing the depths to which our hearts can sink. Does everyone go off the deep end? No, thank God, but, if we are honest, we HAVE to acknowledge that we continue to be shocked at the depravity of some almost on a daily basis. A mother's coldblooded murder of her children; Islamic State's boasting of murdering women, children and the elderly simply because they refused to convert; genocide; abortion; terrorism; all the evils that repulse most of us are occurring almost daily - and that's only stuff we hear about.

So, yes, the heart of man IS desperately wicked. Who CAN know how really bad it is? Who really knows under what conditions doing the unthinkable we might be finding ourselves doing? As humans, we are ALL at enmity with God until and unless we come to faith in Christ. He is who changes our hearts of stone into hearts of flesh. It isn't anything we are capable of doing ourselves.

[daniel1212]

As i have shown before at times, it is obvious that in conversion the faith of the UnGodly is counted for righteousness, (Rm. 4:5) and which is not on the basis of one's own ("infused") holiness, as per Rome, else Abraham must have suddenly become righteous when God counted his faith for righteousness in Gn. 15:6.

Yet it is also obvious that as faith is manifest by what it effects, then God both judges souls as being believers or not in the light of their works, and as fit to have their faith rewarded accordingly, (Mt. 25:32-40; Heb. 6:9; 10:35; Rv. 3:4) in His grace to sinners who apart from salvation on Christs account would be damned for their sins.

Thus works are necessary, as Reformers preached , as evidentiary fruit that such faith is salvific.

And as works require faith, so it can said that he that believes and is baptized in identification with the Lord Jesus (or otherwise confesses the Lord) shall be saved. For as with forgiveness and healing in the case of the palsied man, one equates to the other.

What is contrary to this is that that one is justified and truly merits eternal life by the good works that he performs by the grace of God, and that by a certain level of holiness one actually gain one entrance into Heaven, as in Rome:

Although the sinner is justified by the justice of Christ, inasmuch as the Redeemer has merited for him the grace of justification (causa meritoria), nevertheless he is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis).” Catholic Encyclopedia>Sanctifying Grace

And regardless of theological verbosity regarding this, what is conveyed is what the natural disposition of her members is to believe, which is that they are children of God and who will accepted into glory because they are pretty good people (compared to their neighbors who think likewise).

For indeed, having been formally justified on account of one's own ("infused") holiness, one who has not maintained that or regained that level must suffer purifying torments in RC (EOs differ) "purgatory" to atone for sin and become pure enough to enter Heaven. For like in unScriptural Mormonic soteriology, there is more than one place for believers in the afterlife.

And which leads to other errors, that of indulgences (which EOs also differ on), and the salvific necessity (though in the diversity of Catholicism, not all RCs hold it is such a necessity) of praying to departed saints in Heaven, the defense of which is another matter of egregious extrapolation of Scripture being used in order to support traditions of men, a has been exposed here before.

Which is not surprising, since seems the weight of Scripture is not the basis for the veracity of RC doctrine. Instead the basis for RC assurance of Truth is the premise of the assured veracity of Rome

And having when often reproved some RCs, it appear they believe they are obtaining indulgences by engaging in their specious argumentation and taking more of our time than they are fit for/

[af_vet_1981]

I don't believe you are correct.  However, because you have left certain assumptions unstated, 
I am forced to guess at your full meaning, and so 
I may err in stating your position. 
If so, please feel free to correct me.  The essence of the problem is this.  Does faith act:

1) independent of reason, or 
2) logically prior to reason, or 
3) in equal partnership with reason, or 
4) as the weaker or stronger half of the partnership?  

Which reminds me of the adage "I'm not saying I'm right, but you're definitely wrong." :)

There is only one answer to this that I countenance. Faith is the substance of what we hope for without the evidence, without the proof and without this faith it is impossible to please God. Faith is a grace of God we apprehend when we repent and open or orient our hearts and minds to Him in obedience. It is the faith of a little child who does not really know reason, but responds to love with trust. It is the Shema, the Great Commandment. And it is completed in the faith that though He slay me yet will I trust Him.

1. independent of reason, -- through faith we understand creation
2. logically prior to reason, or -- Noah was warned first of the coming judgment and then built the ark by faith
3. in equal partnership with reason, or -- God invites us to reason together with Him that our sins may be forgiven
4. as the weaker or stronger half of the partnership? -- the prophets by faith subdued kingdoms, and the world was not worthy of the prophets. I cannot think of a prophet who subdued kingdoms, or raised the dead, by reason.

[af_vet_1981]

Fact-checking is obedience to the love we have for God.

I agree with that but I call it meditating in the word day and night.

I choose not to quibble with the Apostle Thomas' own words. What is the spiritual state of one who rejects the resurrection?

Firstly I would not characterize it as a rejection of the resurrection per se. Thomas was not like Judas. Thomas was not with the other Apostles and brethren when the LORD appeared to them. That strikes me as interesting but we cannot know what we don't know yet; lots of stories to tell later perhaps. Thomas refused to accept the testimony of his brother Apostles. That was an error. He wanted to see the evidence for himself, and he did see Jesus. Some people insist on seeing the evidence for themselves before they will believe what the LORD Jesus Christ told us.

I would posit Thomas' spiritual state was more secure than yours or mine. He could not be lost. His name was written in the book, so to speak. You yourself agree he was elect. We see the LORD Jesus Christ moved heaven and earth for his sake. We receive a blessing for believing that Jesus was raised from the dead without seeing Him.

[redleghunter]

What is contrary to this is that that one is justified and truly merits eternal life by the good works that he performs by the grace of God,

That seems to be the crux of the matter....the issue.

[redleghunter]

Post #3180.

Thank you. Excellent discourse.

I learn a lot from your posts. Especially how to patiently and lovingly answer an opposing position.

God Bless and Merry Christmas.

[terycarl]

As you may notice around here, many of the believers in Jesus Christ, alone, gather with fellow believers in the same way the first century congregations used to.

sounds like a good excuse to play golf on Sunday mornings rather than go to church!!!

[terycarl]

Mary wasn’t even important enough for anyone to even keep track of where she spent her last days or where she died. Not one word was written about her after Pentecost.

I'm quite certain that they took good care of her...possibly she lived with one of them or they looked after her some other way..The fact that no Bible entries were made concerning her is totally meaningless....

[redleghunter]

The question was, after presenting a multitude of Scripture evidence, that our works, no matter the type, don’t save us. Only by the Grace of God can we be saved; only by the Grace of God do we bear the fruits of HIS righteousness.

[daniel1212]

Nor, really, is there anything more than sentiment that explains the Assumption. It basically comes from the notion that kids really love their moms, that Jesus loved His mother, too, so given the power, He raptured her early.

This is based upon what one assumes God would do, but for which there is zero record in Scripture of or promise specific to Mary of it occurring, and is contrary to what is revealed, which is that the bodily resurrection and giving of rewards (and crowns) does not occur until the Lord returns.

And this, and such things as the sinlessness of Mary is also contrary to the manner of Scriptural revelation, in which the Holy Spirit characteristically records notable or extraordinary aspects of even lesser persons, from their age, holiness, prolonged virginity, or sinlessness, etc.

All which renders the Assumption as a binding doctrine as lacking warrant, and is based upon the also unwarranted premise of the perpetual assured magisterial infallibility of Rome.

And which does not mean i do not want to honor Mary (among others) in accordance with what is written, and God above all. And thus see my responses on Salon.com to the atheistic arrogance that this thread refers to: Why rape is so intrinsic to religion (Mary Got Raped:Salon Click Bait)

[Elsie]

the CLEAR ones...

[Elsie]

...the truth should not be copyrighted.

A certain religious organization wants a patent on INTERPRETING it though!

[Elsie]

See Paul's letter to the Ephesians, principally chap. 2.

Indeed!

But they STILL were not satisfied!!

[Elsie]

1. I understand you have not had apostolic baptism as the LORD Jesus Christ commanded.

And THIS can ONLY come through the RCC; right?

[Elsie]

>>isn't it absolutely amazing that the Holy Spirit influenced and guided the Catholic church for one thousand six hundred years<<

Well...

Except for that little matter of the CAtholic churches John mentioned in FRevelation; and a few naughty popes; I guess this statement could be considered...

[Elsie]

Yet I speak of the great apostolic commission to teach all the Gentiles and baptize them with water in the name of the Father, Son, and a Holy Spirit.

That was written in invisible ink here:

Acts 15
1 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, baptized according to the LAWS of ROME you cannot be saved.”

[Elsie]

That was written in invisible ink here; too!

Acts 15:22-29

 ²² Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. ²³ With them they sent the following letter:

   The apostles and elders, your brothers,

   To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

   Greetings.

 ²⁴ We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. ²⁵ So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— ²⁶ men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. ²⁷ Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. ²⁸ It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: ²⁹ You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

   Farewell.

[Elsie]

The Catechism does encourage Catholics to ask Mary to intercede for us in the hope that Jesus will grant those intercessions.

Post it; please.

[Elsie]

The Catechism does encourage Catholics to ask Mary to intercede for us in the hope that Jesus will grant those intercessions.

HOPE?

Your sure do m ore than HOPE!

Shall I post just a few (HUNDRED) Novenas, never known to fail, that appear in newspapers all over the world?