Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[ealgeone]

The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.

[annalex]

Again, the difference in not in the composition of the statue but in the fact that a statue of Mary with Jesus represents Mary and Jesus, and a statue that a pagan would bow to is an idol.

[annalex]

“No man cometh unto the Faather but by Me”

I pray to Mary daily, about 50 times. The Father makes me. When I forget, He reminds me.

[annalex]

He was the object of the response

That is very true. But she praised Mary nonetheless. That is exactly what a prayer to Mary is: it is seeking the company of Mary because Jesus is with her, and asking for her prayers to Jesus.

Hail Mary, full of grace
The Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women
And blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus
Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death

As you see, Jesus in in the center of the prayer.

[Dutchboy88]

"So do you really think that Jesus was protected from committing sin????"

Within the posts of Catholics much is revealed about their true view of Jesus. He is so "humanized", so associated with other humans, that it seems they believe He was created at his human birth. Mary is so venerated, and other humans so honored with "S"ainthood, prayers, statues, trinkets, etc. that one wonders exactly what role they believe is left for a "s"avior to do. He is relegated to the smaller statue in their clubhouses and His name is used far less than "Hail Mary", and coupled with the personal payment they must make in purgatory, it seems obvious Jesus is optional to Catholicism.

[annalex]

Of course it does!

Romans 3 clearly cannot be read as if it allowed for no exception; what is different with these verses? We agree that sinlessness is exceptional and requires a miracle.

[ealgeone]

The role of Mary is to lead one to Christ and that is so because the Father wills it to be so. You are imagining the Father resisting Mary's prayers? Why would he do that?

You are imagining Mary praying to the Father.

Further, you are imagining that God cannot resist Mary's prayers somehow elevating her to this false role catholicism has exalted her to.

It sure sounds like catholicism says "Mary says do it and Heaven hops."

And here I was thinking the Holy Spirit was doing this. Silly me.

[ealgeone]

>Bible notes Noah got drunk<

That is not a sin. Jesus got quite a few people drunk.

There mere fact that you would accuse Jesus of getting "quite a few people drunk" shows you display a lack of understanding of not only the Word, but Christ Himself.

I caution you on making such statements. You are accusing Christ, the Man who died for our sins, of leading people into temptation and causing them to sin.

Here are a couple of passages regarding what the Word says about being drunk.

Ephesians 5:18

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,

Galatians 5:21 Envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God

1 Corinthians 5:11

But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

We'll stop there.

This would be the second position you've been shown with Scripture to be in error. The first regarding "all have sinned."

I sincerely recommend you read the New Testament and ditch whatever talking points you're using. They've been shown twice now to be in error.

I would begin with John and then Romans.

In all sincerity, I pray you find the Truth.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Mary is the Mother of God.”

Ah, I see you insist on making a title out of your claim that God Himself never makes. Why???

“That is not my opinion but a biblical fact.”

It is opinion and not fact. God’s Scriptures do not say it. God never gives her the title.

It is unsubstantiated opinion. Not just yours. Many who disregard the authority of Scripture and prefer feelings or religious teachings share that opinion.

“Deal with it.”

Oh, I don’t need to deal with it. Idolatry falls squarely in God’s realm of authority. Not mine. If you mean, “deal with your personal belief,” well no. Again, God’s realm of authority. All I can do is point out the truth of His Word. The results are all his.

best.

[ealgeone]

The Bible notes One person, and One person only, as being sinless. All others have sinned.

Jesus Christ.

[ADSUM]

You make a blanket statement without any documentation. How come there was no objection to the Blessed Mother until the Protestant Reformation 1500 years later? Maybe this will help: The Greek word that is being translated as “full of grace” here is κεχαριτωμένη (transliterated: kecharitōmene), the perfect passive participle of χαριτόω (transliterated: charitoō), which denotes grace. Some versions translate kecharitōmene as “hail, thou that art highly favored,” but that doesn’t really capture the full meaning of what the angel Gabriel is saying here. For one, to translate charitoō as “favor” instead of “grace” is really to give a bare minimum translation of the word. Ultimately, kecharitōmene is derived from the word χάρις (transliterated: charis): charis –> charitoō –> kecharitōmene. The KJV translates charis as “grace” over 83% of the time. The KJV NT Greek Lexicon defines charitoō as “to make graceful, to peruse with grace” as its primary meaning. When the favor is divine favor, “grace” is the better translation. Various well-respected and scholarly reference works confirm this understanding. For example: “Charitoō can mean to Grace as in Luke 1:28 and Eph. 1:6, provided we understand that this grace is endowed by God…” [The Pocket Word Study of the New Testament, Atlanta, Ga.: Bernard & Brothers Publishing, 1982, p. 348] “Charitoō…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D, ed., Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, Iowa Falls, Iowa: World Bible Publications Inc., 1988, p. 1739] “Charitoō: Grace. To Grace.. as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28,… as in Eph. 1:6 were believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved” i.e., objects of Grace” [The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, Chattanooga, Tenn.: AMG International, Inc. 1992, p. 1471] “Luke 1:28 This is all one word in Greek kecharitōmene a perfect passive participle of the verb Charitoō (only here and Eph. 1:6) … Abbott-Smith defines Charitoō as follows: endow with charis i.e. 1. (a.) to make graceful; (b.) to endure with Grace (i.e. Divine favor)” [Ralph Earle, ed., Word Meaning in the New Testament, Peabody, Mass.: Henndrickson Publishing, 1986, p. 52] “… Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon … it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexical Aides To the New Testament, Chattanooga, Tenn.: AMG International, Inc., 1992, p. 966] “Charitoō … kecharitōmene, full of grace, Luke i. 28 (RV. in margin, endued with grace) ” [W.J. Hickie M.A, Greek- English Lexicon to the New Testament, London: Macmillan, 1945, p. 208] “Charitoō: to bestow grace upon, Lk 1:28 Ep 1:6″ [George V. Wigram & Jay Patrick Green, Sr., The New Englishman’s Greek Concordance and Lexicon, Peabody, Mass.: Henndrickson Pub., 1982, p. 915] “28. kecharitomene… to bestow grace” [Cleon L. Rogers, Jr., ed., A Linguistic Key To The New Testament, copyright 1970, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by . Vol. 1, p. 140] “Charitoō … to endue with grace …: Lk 1:28, Eph 1:6″ [George Abbott-Smith D.D, D.C.L., A Manual Lexicon of the New Testament, London: T. & T. Clark, 1929, p. 480] “Charitoō: akin to A., to endow with charis, primarily signified to make graceful or gracious… Luke I:28 ‘Highly favoured’ (Marg., ‘endued with grace’)” [W. E. Vine, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, (unabridged edition), Iowa Falls: Riverside Book and Bible House, p. 424] You get the idea. Now that we know that charitoō is better understood in this instance as “grace” and not simply “favor,” we must now consider what the perfect passive participle would mean. Source: http://catholicstand.com/defense-immaculate-conception-part-3/ Something else that is interesting about this word kecharitōmene is that it is in the vocative case. NTGreek.org tells us (here) that the vocative is “the case of direct address. It is used when one person is speaking to another, calling out or saying their name, or generally addressing them.” In other words, Gabriel is literally calls Mary “full of grace” as if that were her name.

[ealgeone]

paragraphs are our friend.

[ADSUM]

sorry. they were supposed to be there.

[ealgeone]

No problem...happens.

I'm still learning the html....and the Greek!

[ADSUM]

You make a blanket statement without any documentation. How come there was no objection to the Blessed Mother until the Protestant Reformation 1500 years later? Maybe this will help: The Greek word that is being translated as “full of grace” here is κεχαριτωμένη (transliterated: kecharitōmene), the perfect passive participle of χαριτόω (transliterated: charitoō), which denotes grace. Some versions translate kecharitōmene as “hail, thou that art highly favored,” but that doesn’t really capture the full meaning of what the angel Gabriel is saying here. For one, to translate charitoō as “favor” instead of “grace” is really to give a bare minimum translation of the word. Ultimately, kecharitōmene is derived from the word χάρις (transliterated: charis): charis –> charitoō –> kecharitōmene. The KJV translates charis as “grace” over 83% of the time. The KJV NT Greek Lexicon defines charitoō as “to make graceful, to peruse with grace” as its primary meaning. When the favor is divine favor, “grace” is the better translation. Various well-respected and scholarly reference works confirm this understanding. For example: “Charitoō can mean to Grace as in Luke 1:28 and Eph. 1:6, provided we understand that this grace is endowed by God…” [The Pocket Word Study of the New Testament, Atlanta, Ga.: Bernard & Brothers Publishing, 1982, p. 348] “Charitoō…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D, ed., Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, Iowa Falls, Iowa: World Bible Publications Inc., 1988, p. 1739] “Charitoō: Grace. To Grace.. as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28,… as in Eph. 1:6 were believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved” i.e., objects of Grace” [The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, Chattanooga, Tenn.: AMG International, Inc. 1992, p. 1471] “Luke 1:28 This is all one word in Greek kecharitōmene a perfect passive participle of the verb Charitoō (only here and Eph. 1:6) … Abbott-Smith defines Charitoō as follows: endow with charis i.e. 1. (a.) to make graceful; (b.) to endure with Grace (i.e. Divine favor)” [Ralph Earle, ed., Word Meaning in the New Testament, Peabody, Mass.: Henndrickson Publishing, 1986, p. 52] “… Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon … it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexical Aides To the New Testament, Chattanooga, Tenn.: AMG International, Inc., 1992, p. 966] “Charitoō … kecharitōmene, full of grace, Luke i. 28 (RV. in margin, endued with grace) ” [W.J. Hickie M.A, Greek- English Lexicon to the New Testament, London: Macmillan, 1945, p. 208] “Charitoō: to bestow grace upon, Lk 1:28 Ep 1:6″ [George V. Wigram & Jay Patrick Green, Sr., The New Englishman’s Greek Concordance and Lexicon, Peabody, Mass.: Henndrickson Pub., 1982, p. 915] “28. kecharitomene… to bestow grace” [Cleon L. Rogers, Jr., ed., A Linguistic Key To The New Testament, copyright 1970, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by . Vol. 1, p. 140] “Charitoō … to endue with grace …: Lk 1:28, Eph 1:6″ [George Abbott-Smith D.D, D.C.L., A Manual Lexicon of the New Testament, London: T. & T. Clark, 1929, p. 480] “Charitoō: akin to A., to endow with charis, primarily signified to make graceful or gracious… Luke I:28 ‘Highly favoured’ (Marg., ‘endued with grace’)” [W. E. Vine, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, (unabridged edition), Iowa Falls: Riverside Book and Bible House, p. 424] You get the idea. Now that we know that charitoō is better understood in this instance as “grace” and not simply “favor,” we must now consider what the perfect passive participle would mean. Source: http://catholicstand.com/defense-immaculate-conception-part-3/ Put aside your presuppositions for a moment and just look at the evidence. This is amazing what has happened here! Note that sin and grace are opposed (Romans 5:20-21), and grace saves us from sin (Ephesians 2:5,8). Where there is fullness of grace, there is no room for sin. That’s why we claim that Luke 1:28 points to the sinlessness of Mary. Something else that is interesting about this word kecharitōmene is that it is in the vocative case. NTGreek.org tells us (here) that the vocative is “the case of direct address. It is used when one person is speaking to another, calling out or saying their name, or generally addressing them.” In other words, Gabriel is literally calls Mary “full of grace” as if that were her name.

[Resettozero]

The Father makes me. When I forget, He reminds me.

Be very certain it is God the Holy Spirit who is reminding you fifty times a day to pray to Mary the mother of Jesus.

Try the spirits, and be certain where the urging comes from. Thank you.

[Resettozero]

Much better.

?

[ADSUM]

Here is the source of the translation from the Greek: http://catholicstand.com/defense-immaculate-conception-part-3/ The Greek word that is being translated as “full of grace” here is κεχαριτωμένη (transliterated: kecharitōmene), the perfect passive participle of χαριτόω (transliterated: charitoō), which denotes grace. Some versions translate kecharitōmene as “hail, thou that art highly favored,” but that doesn’t really capture the full meaning of what the angel Gabriel is saying here. Put aside your presuppositions for a moment and just look at the evidence. This is amazing what has happened here! Note that sin and grace are opposed (Romans 5:20-21), and grace saves us from sin (Ephesians 2:5,8). Where there is fullness of grace, there is no room for sin. That’s why we claim that Luke 1:28 points to the sinlessness of Mary. Something else that is interesting about this word kecharitōmene is that it is in the vocative case. NTGreek.org tells us (here) that the vocative is “the case of direct address. It is used when one person is speaking to another, calling out or saying their name, or generally addressing them.” In other words, Gabriel is literally calls Mary “full of grace” as if that were her name.

[RoosterRedux]

Thought this article might be interesting for this thread. It illustrates the ancient and deep-seated human hunger that exists for goddess worship and continues even til today.

Mary Matha: Why Hindus In India Venerate Mother Mary, The Blessed Virgin Of Roman Catholicism

In India, a country where Christians account for only about 2.3 percent of the total vast population, the image and iconography of Mother Mary, the Blessed Virgin, are venerated by untold millions of Hindus and other non-Christians. Devotion to Virgin Mary in India (among non-Catholics) takes many forms, from simple shrines in private homes (right next to Hindu gods and goddesses) to pilgrimages to public Marian shrines, which are found all over the country.

Asia News reported that at least 80 percent of pilgrims who formally honor Mother Mary at shrines come from non-Catholic backgrounds, including burqa-clad Muslim women. Moreover, a number of miracles have been reported at Marian shrines, much like in the West (i.e., alleged sightings of Mary crying or speaking, etc.). This seemingly strange phenomenon might be explained by India's long history of respect, love and adoration of "mother goddess" figures. "The mother goddess has always been venerated [in India] from the earliest times,” Father Errold Fernandes, a Jesuit scriptures scholar, told Asia News. “[Hindu goddesses like] Durga and Kali are some examples of this veneration... People [in India] are able to see in Mary... a figure who will fulfill their aspirations and answer their prayers." Fernandes suggested that Indians who pray for intercession from Mary seek divine assistance in such earthly concerns as finding a job, conceiving a child, or alleviating medical illnesses, as they would with any number of Hindu saints and deities.

[Grateful2God]

Please read the Bible thoroughly before further posting! No one has been able to enter ‘heaven.’

Excuse me, but unless you are the Religion Moderator, you have no right to tell me nor anyone else, not to post.

An honest question: where do you think people go after they die since Jesus died and rose from the dead? Did He not tell the good theif he would be with Him that day in paradise?

God bless you, friend, and have hope! There is a Heaven, and God is there with more love than we can fathom on earth!

[ADSUM]

Well I tried. I reposted again.

Please go to the web page listed.

http://catholicstand.com/defense-immaculate-conception-part-3/

It may not change your mind, but it will provide a clear understanding.