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To: CynicalBear; metmom
You make a blanket statement without any documentation. How come there was no objection to the Blessed Mother until the Protestant Reformation 1500 years later? Maybe this will help: The Greek word that is being translated as “full of grace” here is κεχαριτωμένη (transliterated: kecharitōmene), the perfect passive participle of χαριτόω (transliterated: charitoō), which denotes grace. Some versions translate kecharitōmene as “hail, thou that art highly favored,” but that doesn’t really capture the full meaning of what the angel Gabriel is saying here. For one, to translate charitoō as “favor” instead of “grace” is really to give a bare minimum translation of the word. Ultimately, kecharitōmene is derived from the word χάρις (transliterated: charis): charis –> charitoō –> kecharitōmene. The KJV translates charis as “grace” over 83% of the time. The KJV NT Greek Lexicon defines charitoō as “to make graceful, to peruse with grace” as its primary meaning. When the favor is divine favor, “grace” is the better translation. Various well-respected and scholarly reference works confirm this understanding. For example: “Charitoō can mean to Grace as in Luke 1:28 and Eph. 1:6, provided we understand that this grace is endowed by God…” [The Pocket Word Study of the New Testament, Atlanta, Ga.: Bernard & Brothers Publishing, 1982, p. 348] “Charitoō…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D, ed., Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, Iowa Falls, Iowa: World Bible Publications Inc., 1988, p. 1739] “Charitoō: Grace. To Grace.. as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28,… as in Eph. 1:6 were believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved” i.e., objects of Grace” [The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, Chattanooga, Tenn.: AMG International, Inc. 1992, p. 1471] “Luke 1:28 This is all one word in Greek kecharitōmene a perfect passive participle of the verb Charitoō (only here and Eph. 1:6) … Abbott-Smith defines Charitoō as follows: endow with charis i.e. 1. (a.) to make graceful; (b.) to endure with Grace (i.e. Divine favor)” [Ralph Earle, ed., Word Meaning in the New Testament, Peabody, Mass.: Henndrickson Publishing, 1986, p. 52] “… Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon … it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexical Aides To the New Testament, Chattanooga, Tenn.: AMG International, Inc., 1992, p. 966] “Charitoō … kecharitōmene, full of grace, Luke i. 28 (RV. in margin, endued with grace) ” [W.J. Hickie M.A, Greek- English Lexicon to the New Testament, London: Macmillan, 1945, p. 208] “Charitoō: to bestow grace upon, Lk 1:28 Ep 1:6″ [George V. Wigram & Jay Patrick Green, Sr., The New Englishman’s Greek Concordance and Lexicon, Peabody, Mass.: Henndrickson Pub., 1982, p. 915] “28. kecharitomene… to bestow grace” [Cleon L. Rogers, Jr., ed., A Linguistic Key To The New Testament, copyright 1970, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by . Vol. 1, p. 140] “Charitoō … to endue with grace …: Lk 1:28, Eph 1:6″ [George Abbott-Smith D.D, D.C.L., A Manual Lexicon of the New Testament, London: T. & T. Clark, 1929, p. 480] “Charitoō: akin to A., to endow with charis, primarily signified to make graceful or gracious… Luke I:28 ‘Highly favoured’ (Marg., ‘endued with grace’)” [W. E. Vine, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, (unabridged edition), Iowa Falls: Riverside Book and Bible House, p. 424] You get the idea. Now that we know that charitoō is better understood in this instance as “grace” and not simply “favor,” we must now consider what the perfect passive participle would mean. Source: http://catholicstand.com/defense-immaculate-conception-part-3/ Something else that is interesting about this word kecharitōmene is that it is in the vocative case. NTGreek.org tells us (here) that the vocative is “the case of direct address. It is used when one person is speaking to another, calling out or saying their name, or generally addressing them.” In other words, Gabriel is literally calls Mary “full of grace” as if that were her name.
1,390 posted on 12/17/2014 8:36:21 AM PST by ADSUM
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To: ADSUM; CynicalBear; metmom
paragraphs are our friend.
1,391 posted on 12/17/2014 8:40:48 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: ADSUM
You make a blanket statement without any documentation. How come there was no objection to the Blessed Mother until the Protestant Reformation 1500 years later? Maybe this will help: The Greek word that is being translated as “full of grace” here is κεχαριτωμένη (transliterated: kecharitōmene), the perfect passive participle of χαριτόω (transliterated: charitoō), which denotes grace. Some versions translate kecharitōmene as “hail, thou that art highly favored,” but that doesn’t really capture the full meaning of what the angel Gabriel is saying here. For one, to translate charitoō as “favor” instead of “grace” is really to give a bare minimum translation of the word. Ultimately, kecharitōmene is derived from the word χάρις (transliterated: charis): charis –> charitoō –> kecharitōmene. The KJV translates charis as “grace” over 83% of the time. The KJV NT Greek Lexicon defines charitoō as “to make graceful, to peruse with grace” as its primary meaning. When the favor is divine favor, “grace” is the better translation. Various well-respected and scholarly reference works confirm this understanding. For example: “Charitoō can mean to Grace as in Luke 1:28 and Eph. 1:6, provided we understand that this grace is endowed by God…” [The Pocket Word Study of the New Testament, Atlanta, Ga.: Bernard & Brothers Publishing, 1982, p. 348] “Charitoō…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D, ed., Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, Iowa Falls, Iowa: World Bible Publications Inc., 1988, p. 1739] “Charitoō: Grace. To Grace.. as to the virgin Mary in Luke 1:28,… as in Eph. 1:6 were believers are said to be “accepted in the beloved” i.e., objects of Grace” [The Complete Word Study Dictionary New Testament, Chattanooga, Tenn.: AMG International, Inc. 1992, p. 1471] “Luke 1:28 This is all one word in Greek kecharitōmene a perfect passive participle of the verb Charitoō (only here and Eph. 1:6) … Abbott-Smith defines Charitoō as follows: endow with charis i.e. 1. (a.) to make graceful; (b.) to endure with Grace (i.e. Divine favor)” [Ralph Earle, ed., Word Meaning in the New Testament, Peabody, Mass.: Henndrickson Publishing, 1986, p. 52] “… Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon … it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexical Aides To the New Testament, Chattanooga, Tenn.: AMG International, Inc., 1992, p. 966] “Charitoō … kecharitōmene, full of grace, Luke i. 28 (RV. in margin, endued with grace) ” [W.J. Hickie M.A, Greek- English Lexicon to the New Testament, London: Macmillan, 1945, p. 208] “Charitoō: to bestow grace upon, Lk 1:28 Ep 1:6″ [George V. Wigram & Jay Patrick Green, Sr., The New Englishman’s Greek Concordance and Lexicon, Peabody, Mass.: Henndrickson Pub., 1982, p. 915] “28. kecharitomene… to bestow grace” [Cleon L. Rogers, Jr., ed., A Linguistic Key To The New Testament, copyright 1970, printed by Zondervan Publishing House, edited by . Vol. 1, p. 140] “Charitoō … to endue with grace …: Lk 1:28, Eph 1:6″ [George Abbott-Smith D.D, D.C.L., A Manual Lexicon of the New Testament, London: T. & T. Clark, 1929, p. 480] “Charitoō: akin to A., to endow with charis, primarily signified to make graceful or gracious… Luke I:28 ‘Highly favoured’ (Marg., ‘endued with grace’)” [W. E. Vine, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, (unabridged edition), Iowa Falls: Riverside Book and Bible House, p. 424] You get the idea. Now that we know that charitoō is better understood in this instance as “grace” and not simply “favor,” we must now consider what the perfect passive participle would mean. Source: http://catholicstand.com/defense-immaculate-conception-part-3/ Put aside your presuppositions for a moment and just look at the evidence. This is amazing what has happened here! Note that sin and grace are opposed (Romans 5:20-21), and grace saves us from sin (Ephesians 2:5,8). Where there is fullness of grace, there is no room for sin. That’s why we claim that Luke 1:28 points to the sinlessness of Mary. Something else that is interesting about this word kecharitōmene is that it is in the vocative case. NTGreek.org tells us (here) that the vocative is “the case of direct address. It is used when one person is speaking to another, calling out or saying their name, or generally addressing them.” In other words, Gabriel is literally calls Mary “full of grace” as if that were her name.
1,394 posted on 12/17/2014 8:57:49 AM PST by ADSUM
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To: ADSUM; metmom; ealgeone
>>Gabriel is literally calls Mary “full of grace” as if that were her name.<<

No, he does not. You are obviously not reading my posts. I have no problem, nor do any scholars with the meaning "favoured with grace". That is NOT the issue. The issue is the Catholic position of "full of grace". No where in that passage or word can "full of grace" be found. The Greek word kecharitōmenē has NO connotation of "full" within it. A direct translation could be "you favored with grace" because of the vocative case simply meaning that it was Mary who was "favoured with Grace".

There is a specific Greek word for full which is plērēs. It is used when speaking of Stephen here;

Acts 6:8 Now Stephen, a man full (plērēs) of God's grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people.

It is NEVER used of Mary when speaking of grace like it does for Stephen. The only other time it is used when referencing grace is with Jesus.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full (plērēs) of grace and truth.

The phrase "full of grace" used by Jerome in the Latin Vulgate which the Catholic Church uses for it's translations is a corruption of the original Greek. In fact, the phrase "blessed art thou among women" is not found in the older Greek manuscripts of Luke 1:28 which is the reason most translations now do not have it.

The Catholic "tradition" of "full of grace" is built on corrupted translations of the original Greek documents.

1,406 posted on 12/17/2014 9:46:31 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: ADSUM

I do applaud you for attempting to provide some evidence behind the catholic interpretation of Luke 1:28. Better work than most on this thread.


1,449 posted on 12/17/2014 11:02:17 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: ADSUM

Darn, you beat me to that post, I was just going to say that....honest!!!


1,554 posted on 12/17/2014 6:10:28 PM PST by terycarl
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