Posted on 12/10/2014 6:32:20 AM PST by marshmallow
"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.
On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).
On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.
It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."
Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."
If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?
"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."
To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
“It’s called a covenant. Research the ancient Jewish wedding contract. Then perhaps the covenant God has with people.”
Contracts are not wedding vows. Care to make up anything else?
“You claim bridesmaids are pagan? I thought Catholics read all of scripture? You obviously missed Matthew 25.”
Nope. I missed nothing. Matthew 25 says nothing about bridesmaids of the same kind used in Christian weddings. They served a different role in Jewish weddings. Anyone who studies this passage knows this. Apparently you don’t. http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/30984/does-a-jewish-wedding-involve-bridesmaids-or-groomsmen
“As for the wedding ring? I’ll just give you a hint. In a Jewish wedding these words are spoken by the groom. “”Behold, thou art consecrated to me with this ring, according to the law of Moses and Israel.””
And you fail again. Although ring exchanges are allowed in Judaism now, the only ring required is the bride’s. Notice, as I said before, weddings rings EXCHANGED. I’m sure that I also just said “wedding rings”. In both cases I’m right. Jews have adopted cultural practices from those they live with. The Jewish practice of a SINGLE wedding ring is from the Talmud in Masechta Kiddushin. Christians don’t follow the Talmud. You fail again.
Indeed it is. Not uncommon among the Catholics however.
Which speaks of Philip an apostle, one of the 12 chosen by Jesus.
Your point?
Same here. Only mine was 50 years ago. I immersed myself in scripture to determine how to deal with much of what I was being told. I became rather cynical when it came to what man says or teaches.
Sometimes ask Mary.....more like everyday!
However, we are not commanded or given an example to pray to Mary or anyone else....except to God.
This is what the false worship of Mary has grown to.
Pretty soon, Jesus will not be needed in the catholic church. He will be replaced by Mary. It's happening already.
It happens. Especially when protestants move the goal posts to accommodate their ever-expanding definition of what constitutes a pagan object or practice. At least we now have an admission from the protestant contingent that it is the usage and ultimately the intent of that usage and not the thing itself which determines its paganistic properties.
No longer will we have to suffer from the ignorance and error of the protestant position which seeks to conflate correlation with causation.
Thank you for freeing my Christmas tree from the bondage of paganism.
We have shown you over and over that Catholics don't restrict themselves to simply asking them to "pray for them". Denying the evidence only makes you appear blind or in denial.
One wee problem with your extrapolation which concludes with Mary is the mother of God. And the differing ways you use to say who Jesus is, you leave the one that cannot be left out.
Jesus is God ! He was God before Mary even existed. Jesus created Mary, Mary did not create Jesus.
Mary did not given birth to God, God already was. “I am that I am” was God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit revealing himself and then Jesus announces again in John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Who says before Abraham he is “I am”? Jesus! Jesus did not come into being when he was born a man, he always existed.
Who is Paul referring to in Colossians chapter 1? Jesus! He names him and then referrs to him throughout the chapter as the one who created all things and that he Jesus is before all things. Who? Jesus! Paul does not refer to him as the “Word” who created all things but as Jesus who created all things.
Col 1: 16-20 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Who is the Word referred to in John 1? Jesus! Read it, read John 1 it says Jesus Christ. The Word did not change into Jesus when he was born a man, the Word dwelt among us. The Word was always Jesus and Jesus was always the Word.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.
Who created all things by Jesus Christ! Jesus is referred to as the Word because it is by his Word all things were created.
And it is by the Word of his power he upholds the whole universe still.
Heb 1:2-3 his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
Placemarker
Jesus is referred to repeatedly in old testament also. His name is Yeshua which means salvation. Read a Hebrew bible or a Hebrew names bible, Yeshua is named many many times. Yeshua always was and Mary did not always exist therefore she did not and could not have given birth to God.
And scriptural proof of that belief is what?
That is the importance... the absolute necessity of using the word of God as the authority of doctrine not just a man made belief.
I've noticed old vladimir998 has no reply when confronted with the facts.
To be quite honest...catholics have written so much over time I'm not sure they even know what they're supposed to believe.
I'd love to know how catholics continue to cling to catholicism when the claims upon which it is supposed to be based repeatedly are shown to be false.
Ready for the strawman argument and personal attacks.....
People need a Savior for two reasons: either to remove sin or to prevent sin.
There are two ways to be saved from a pit: by being hauled out of it, or by being prevented from falling into it--- with the understanding that falling in is something that would have occurred without God's intervention.
This Scripture brilliantly applies to Mary, and of course not only to Mary:
Eph 1:3-6, 11-12
Brothers and sisters:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who has blessed us in Christ
with every spiritual blessing in the heavens,
as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world,
to be holy and without blemish before him.
In love he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ,
in accord with the favor of his will,
for the praise of the glory of his grace
that he granted us in the beloved.
In him we were also chosen,
destined in accord with the purpose of the One
who accomplishes all things according to the intention of his will,
so that we might exist for the praise of his glory,
we who first hoped in Christ.
I hardly think God would choose, prepare and predestine a mother for His Son who would be inferior, in nature, to Eve--- I'm speaking of sinless Eve, "Eve 1.0", when she was still in Eden before the Fall.
If Mary is the Blessed among women, it is reasonable to think she would have received from the hand of God an undamaged human nature, just as Eve had at first had an undamaged human nature --- though the first Eve blew it by her sin.
And displaying reverence (def: deep respect for someone or something, "rituals showed honor and reverence for the dead" - synonyms: high esteem, high regard, great respect, acclaim, admiration, appreciation, estimation, favor) toward the mother of Our Lord and Saviour is completely distinct from Divine Worship. However, falsely conflating a reverent gesture such as kneeling or bowing as a sign of respect for the Mother of Christ with Divine Worship, which is reserved for God alone, certainly qualifies as "playing semantic games."
God forbids idolatry. Mary, the Mother of God, is clearly not an idol, nor do Catholics "worship" her in any way. That would be a violation of the First Commandment. It's an absurd claim that the Catholic Church deifies Mary in violation of the First Commandment. Anyone who wants to find out the truth of the matter can quite easily research it for themselves.
God commands we honor our parents. We honor the Mother of God, the human mother of Our Saviour, in imitation of Christ. As the Most Perfect Son that ever walked the earth He fulfilled the Fourth Commandment by loving and honoring her perfectly. Mocking her, denigrating her, and even treating her dismissively are offenses against God's Commandment and against the Son of God.
Oh really? So you would say that a vow isn't binding?
>> Matthew 25 says nothing about bridesmaids of the same kind used in Christian weddings.<<
Semantics will get you no where.
>>Although ring exchanges are allowed in Judaism now, the only ring required is the bride’s. Notice, as I said before, weddings rings EXCHANGED.<<
I wear no ring.
>>Christians don’t follow the Talmud.<<
I didn't say they did or should. I simply showed that those things you claimed were purely pagan have a base in scripture. Deny all you want but it simply makes you look petty.
Jesus instituted the Petrine Office in the person of Peter (Matthew 16:18) who was succeeded by Linus then Anacletus, etc.
Chain of testimony: St. John the Apostle => St. Polycarp => St. Irenaeus
St. Irenaeus: “The blessed Apostles then having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus* the office of the espiscopate... To him succeeded Anacletus, and after him, in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric... In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the Apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us....”
* “Make haste to come before winter Eubulus and Pudens, and Linus and Claudia, and all the brethren, salute thee.” 2 Tim 4:21
I never prayed to my parents when they were alive nor do I pray to them now as they cannot hear our prayers.
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