Posted on 12/10/2014 6:32:20 AM PST by marshmallow
"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.
On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).
On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.
It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."
Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."
If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?
"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."
To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
Here's a more fundamental truth for you: The protestant creates this interior sandbox they call sola scriptura filling it with all sorts of man-made presuppositions based on protestant 'reason'.
They then invite the Catholic into their sandbox. And with wailing and gnashing of teeth ask the question, "Why oh why aren't these toys in my sandbox?"
The Catholic, in charity, can only survey the interior landscape of the protestant mind and explain where those toys are and why they are missing.
These are your church's teachings. Not my opinion or any other Christian's....it's from the catholic church.
Really? I don't see the phrase direct, categorical or stringent in Ineffabilis Deus
You can't defend it and you know it.
I can defend my Blessed Mother just fine, thank you. Enjoy the sandbox. I'm going to the beach with Mom.
“Here is a good definition of what is meant by Sola Scriptura.”
I don’t know why you’re posting this to me. I made NO MISTAKE about sola scriptura. You made the mistake of thinking two paragraphs were one. Why do we use paragraphs when writing, metmom? Surely you can answer that question.
“Y’all should worry more about catholic beliefs. I trust the Bible a whole lot more than any catholic doctrine.”
The Bible is Catholic doctrine. Open your Bible and show me the verse that says Matthew wrote a gospel. Can you?
Your explanation only works if my argument is that in order for a Dogma to be defined it has to be explicitly, categorically and stringently defined in Sacred Scripture.
That's not my argument. It's Eagle's.
Where do you get that from? Is that official Catholic teaching?
The pharisees kept the letter of the Law perfectly. If anyone would be considered *holy* in that regard, it would be them.
And guess who it was who had Him executed?
Their being holy didn't prevent them from not recognizing Him.
Yup that Rahab certainly was someone more holy than Abraham, wasn't she?
It stands to reason that the woman from whose flesh the UNFALLEN Christ would take his flesh, and who would be responsible for helping to mold his UNFALLEN psyche, would herself be most fit for that function if she herself was UNFALLEN.
Well, then, it stands to reason that Mary's MOTHER from whom the (allegedly) UNFALLEN Mary was born, would herself need to be UNFALLEN since Mary's mother would be responsible for helping Mary's UNFALLEN psyche.
Do you guys ever think through what you believe?
If Mary had been a sinner, Jesus (being God, and just) would have had to wreak vengeance on her, given the intimate relationship between mother and son. Wreaking vengeance is not compatible with a healthy mother-son relationship.
WOW. What a twisted view of God. The God who sent His son to die for us while we were yet sinners.
I can see that Catholicism still portrays God as a God of judgment and condemnation, ready and all too willing to zap into oblivion anyone who is not perfect. Not much of the love of God showing in that kind of God.
That's a real Father's heart for you, eh?
If Mary had not been immaculately conceived—i.e., if she had not been an UNFALLEN person—HER BODY COULD NOT HAVE OBEYED HER WILL when she gave the angel Gabriel her consent to conceive the Word in her womb.
More nonsense......
The angel told Mary how it was going to be. Nowhere did anyone ask her permission.
Belief in Mary’s preservation from death and from the corruption of the tomb, by means of her bodily assumption into heaven, was universal in the early Church. The total absence of any tradition regarding a corpse, a tomb, or even relics is evidence that this belief indeed was universal.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Lack of evidence means nothing except that there's no evidence.
The Assumption is evidence for the Immaculate Conception, because it shows that Mary was not punished with death, as she would HAVE to be if she had been a sinner.
Another portrayal of God as judgmental and condemning.
Death wasn't a punishment for sin. God didn't punish men with death for their sin. Death is a consequence of their sin.
This warped view of God that Catholicism puts forth results in a very lopsided view of God and does not reveal His Father's heart toward us at all.
The belief that one can profitably read and interpret Scripture WITHOUT RECOURSE TO REASON is as improbable as being able to sing opera without breathing.
It's becoming more apparent by the day that there's no room for the Holy Spirit in Catholicism.
If someone is using reason to interpret Scripture, then they WILL come to the wrong interpretation of it. Spiritual matters are spiritually discerned and the man without the Spirit CANNOT understand the things of God. Reason will not help because it CANNOT.
“Either it’s the power of deception.”
Protestantism is all about deception.
As John Henry Newman, a former Protestant who knew Protestantism very well wrote:
“If you would have some direct downright proof that Catholicism is what Protestants make it to be, something which will come up to the mark, you must lie; else you will not get beyond feeble suspicions, which may be right, but may be wrong. Hence Protestants are obliged to cut their ninth commandment out of their Decalogue. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” must go, must disappear; their position requires the sacrifice. The substance, the force, the edge of their Tradition is slander. As soon as ever they disabuse their minds of what is false, and grasp only what is true,—I do not say they at once become Catholics; I do not say they lose their dislike to our religion, or their misgivings about its working;—but I say this, either they become tolerant towards us, and cease to hate us personally,—or, at least, supposing they cannot shake off old associations, and are prejudiced and hostile as before, still they find they have not the means of communicating their own feelings to others. To Protestantism False Witness is the principle of propagation. There are indeed able men who can make a striking case out of anything or nothing, as great painters give a meaning and a unity to the commonest bush, and pond, and paling and stile: genius can do without facts, as well as create them; but few possess the gift. Taking things as they are, and judging of them by the long run, one may securely say, that the anti-Catholic Tradition could not be kept alive, would die of exhaustion, without a continual supply of fable.” (Lecture 4. True Testimony Insufficient for the Protestant View)
Here at FR I have caught two or three Protestants outright lying. See my profile page, for instance.
Not much else left to base it on except "feelings".
Stay focused.
Well, from what I have read on here, very few if any, back up their beliefs with scriptures. Why is that? Don’t y’all read it? I have learned on this site that y’all believe a lot of junk that is not from the Bible. I have seen pictures of people bowing down to statues of Mary, yet it is denied over and over on here. I have heard prayers to saints on tv. I think praying to Jesus would be a lot more effective.
Here at FR we've caught the whole catholic church lying about this "dogma" by promulgating an untruth built upon untruths.
Sorry, but you lost me. I don’t understand what you mean.
And here we have a contradiction.
AM claims that belief in the immaculate conception was a universal belief among the early church.
The Catholic encyclopedia not only says that it was not universal, but that it was not even recognized by the early Catholic church.
So what have we here? Every man his own pope, deciding for himself what to believe or not based on what he wants to believe?
Every Catholic’s own personal interpretation of the Catholic encyclopedia?
And this is superior to soal Scriptura just how?
Who do we believe now? The Catholic encyclopedia?
Or an anonymous internet poster?
Baloney.
As the mother of our Lord and Savior, was she not blessed?
If you read the catechism of the catholic church you'll find she does have super powers.
OK, humor me. Where does it say in the Catechism of the Catholic Church that Mary has superpowers?
(Wow, commenting on this thread was like stepping onto a hornets' nest. lol)
No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture. Catholic Encyclopedia Online - Immaculate Conception.
The pope lied and he knows he lied. And don't say he can't.
“It’s not based on Scripture and not to be based on tradition.”
That’s what YOU say. You don’t get to decide these things. Also, sola scriptura is NOT BASED ON SCRIPTURE. It never mentions it nor even alludes to it. It is a man-made Protestant tradition.
“Not much else left to base it on except “feelings”.”
As seen here at FR quite often, sola scriptura is completely subjective. It’s based on feelings. In a thread today, Elsie said he/she believed “sleep” in scripture means that the Virgin Mary is not in heaven now. He/she said Mary is dead. I said she is alive in Christ. He/she said, “Not yet...” and then listed these verses (none of which prove what he/she claims anyway (Psalm 13:3, Psalm 90:5, Daniel 12:2, John 11:12-13, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, Ephesians 5:14, 1 Thessalonians 4:13).
Now, do you believe Elsie is right? He/she is relying on sola scriptura.
“Stay focused.”
I am. I wish you were. But if you disagree with Elsie, then either sola scriptura is false or you or Elsie is wrong. Which is it?
Yeah, I know what paragraphs are.
The lines I posted were not paragraphs. They were consecutive sentences.
I do also know that paragraphs contain more than one sentence.
Apparently, you did not learn that.
(You didn't happen to go to journalism school, did you?)
Except I never misunderstood it.
Except that your post reveals that you did.
Too bad for you.
I"m sorry to hear that. It's the Holy Spirit that was sent as comforter. Our faith comes from God not Mary. Those prayers are asking for Mary to perform specific functions. Please don't tell us that Catholics only ask Mary to pray for them. Many of those types of prayers are posted online for all to see.
I made no mistake there.
I posted the sentences of yours separately, exactly as you did.
Like I said, backing up beliefs based solely on scripture is a protestant problem. Some Catholics will play in the protestant sandbox, some won't.
I think praying to Jesus would be a lot more effective.
With all due respect, Ma'am but what makes you think what you consider to be effective has any bearing on what is true? Are you not, in fact, substituting your own judgment based on "effectiveness" and applying it to 1.2 billion Catholics whom you believe do not pray to Jesus?
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