Posted on 12/10/2014 6:32:20 AM PST by marshmallow
"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.
On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).
On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.
It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."
Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."
If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?
"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."
To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
“The Baptism to which Peter referred isn’t the physical ritual.”
It’s Baptism - with water. Hence, the comparison to Noah and the Ark in verse 20. Also, “removal of dirt from the body” is a clear reference back to the idea of washing with water which only makes sense if this is about Baptism.
“You left out the rest of the passage:”
It wasn’t necessary. The rest of the passage just proves what I was saying even more so it wasn’t necessary.
“The Baptism to which Peter, therefore, refers, is the heart of man, the heart which Christ pointed out multiple times throughout His ministry that is what concerns Him.”
No, for first generation Christians Baptism followed a change of heart. The two could be discussed as one. Hence, Peter’s words in Acts 2:38.
Again, it is NOT the physical ritual of Baptism which SAVES you.
It is the HEART which BELIEVES in CHRIST which Saves.
Baptism is a physical representation of what the HEART has done. One can be drowned with water and they will STILL NOT BE SAVED.
Actually, what you need to read are Christ’s words about ‘who may be saved’.
Start with the Gospel of John.
No, that IS the point. Agreed, with all caps and bold.
"We say we serve God. The Muslims say they worship Allah which is simply their word for god. We know that when they say Allah they are referencing someone other than the God we reference."
Yes, for instance: not only the Muslims as you alluded to, but also the Mormons and the Jews do not believe in the Trinity. So they understand God is Creator and Lawgiver, but do not understand God as Trinity, and therefore do not understand Jesus as Only-Begotten Son and as Savior, nor the Holy Spirit Who dwells within and directs the Church and each of its members.
"The Catholics say they worship God. But the God they serve didn't say that Mary was "queen of heaven". Nor did He tell us to pray to either Mary or so called Saints and ask them to perform specific tasks."
Well, that's your interpretation. We know Jesus is the King of Kings, so his mother is the Queen Mother simply by definition. This is a meaningful corollary, consistent with the way the Jews understood Kings and Queens. Reading the Prophets and the Psalms in a Christological sense, we also see the Queens in the OT foreshadowing Mary, e.g. the beautiful Psalm 45:
At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir.Beautiful and prophetic references to Mary --- I praise the Holy Spirit for giving us this. Some of it is exactly parallel to what Mary herself said in Luke 2.
Listen, O daughter,
Consider and incline your ear;
Forget your own people also, and your father’s house;
So the King will greatly desire your beauty;
Because He is your Lord, worship Him.
And the daughter of Tyre will come with a gift;
The rich among the people will seek your favor.
The royal daughter is all glorious within the palace;
Her clothing is woven with gold.
She shall be brought to the King in robes of many colors;
The virgins, her companions who follow her, shall be brought to You.
With gladness and rejoicing they shall be brought;
They shall enter the King’s palace.
Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons,
Whom you shall make princes in all the earth.
I will make Your name to be remembered in all generations;
Therefore the people shall praise You forever and ever.
Revelation 12, too. The woman with the crown of 12 stars is the heavenly queen (crown, stars). And as she is the mother of the Messiah (a child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron, as in Psalm 2, a Messianic Psalm), she is Mary, because as we know, Mary is the Mother of the Messiah. There are lovely multiple meanings here,too, as Mary both post-figures Daughter Zion, Daughter Jerusalem, Israel (12 tribes); and also, she herself is a figure or image of the Church (v. 17: we are "the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.") That would be us. You and me, Cynical Bear.
I love these Scriptures. They are so intricately woven, and so packed with meaning. Praise Jesus Christ.
Mary was so insignificant in the overall scheme of things no one even knows where she lived out her life nor where she died or when.
>>Revelation 12, too.<<
The woman in Revelation is the nation of Israel
Mary is NOT the mother of us all. The New Jerusalem above is.
No, I do not regret coming on the Religion Forum.
In fact, I jumped right on fighting the demons of evil when I first signed on.
As I was also doing in my personal life.
Watching the synchronization of Biblical prophecy and what is going on in the world secularly and spiritually is quite enlightening to say the least.
Some people have to see the Truth over and over again until it finally hits them.
Watching the One World Government form at the same time as the One World Religion shows that epic events are soon going to happen of Biblical proportions.
It's all on fast track.
That proverbial "handbasket" is mighty full and on it's way!
“Again, it is NOT the physical ritual of Baptism which SAVES you.”
As I already said - but apparently you ignored it - GRACE saves, and God gives us grace through Baptism.
“It is the HEART which BELIEVES in CHRIST which Saves.”
Actually the intellect believes and trusts in Christ, but if you want to say heart (or bowels as the Old Testament literally says: “his bowels did yearn upon his brother” Genesis 43:30) that’s fine. Literally the heart doesn’t believe or trust. It has no intelligence or discernment. There are no synapsis firing in the heart, you know?
“Baptism is a physical representation of what the HEART has done.”
No, the grace of Baptism is real. The ceremony of Baptism is a physical representation, a symbol, of what the grace of Baptism actually does.
“One can be drowned with water and they will STILL NOT BE SAVED.”
Baptism is not about drowning people. You can keep separating grace from Baptism in your theory, but in fact they are one.
“Actually, what you need to read are Christ’s words about ‘who may be saved’.”
Already have. Many times. You might want to read Mark 16:16.
“Start with the Gospel of John.”
Already read it. Many times. John 3, for instance, is about Baptism. Ever notice that?
Not ignoring anything.
Baptism does NOT save.
Faith in Christ Jesus saves.
Christ said to enter heaven, you MUST be born again; you MUST believe in Him.
Read the Gospel of John.
Read Romans.
You are taking out of context part of a line from one Scripture and basing dogma on that text which contradicts what Jesus Himself said is required to be saved.
That is disingenuous, at best.
According to the 8th centurySecond Council of Nicaea --- worth a look, since Christ is now Incarnate, the propriety of representing Holy things by material things is established, since the honor does not go to an entity which does not actually exist (e.g. a false god) nor to an object (e.g. a crucifix), but to Him who is the prototype of the image (e.g. Christ).
The 8th century iconoclasts, in contrast, wished to smash all Christian art, cut down crosses, and destroy "the evil work of painters." Their iconoclast program very much paralleled that of the Muslims, by whom they were historically much influenced. Like the Muslims, they wished to extirpate outward signs of Christian piety.
Go ‘baptize’ the terrorists.
You think that will save them?
I hope that clarifies things.
You are replacing what Christ said is required for salvation with physical rituals created by church dogma.
Where are my posts that are anti Catholic?
You know, pointed at an individual Catholic here at FR?
So you got tricked, big deal.
Maybe you are upset that when you tried to trick me I didn't fall for it?
Here is the post where you tried to trick me into watching a video. As your answer to me, how juvenile.
I never click on video links unless it is said what it is about. And no, I haven't looked at it.
And I don't care to have debates with links to videos. So unproductive.
For all I know it could be a Cartman video! JK, got a sense of humor yet?
So you tried to trick me, so I tricked you.
" The woman in Revelation is the nation of Israel. Mary is NOT the mother of us all. The New Jerusalem above is.""
Please read this again, simply omitting the word "not." Everything you wrote in these sentences is true, except for the "not."
This is because Mary is an image of the nation of Israel before her, and the New Jerusalem after her. This is so clear in her Magnificat, in which she references this chain of God's amazing blessing from "Abraham and his seed" before her, to "all generations" after her.
I found it a real opening to the Holy Spirit, to read Luke 1:46-55 every evening for a couple of months. A whole treasure chest of doctrine and blessing unfolds in these words:
My soul doth magnify the Lord
and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
For he hath regarded
the lowliness of his handmaiden
For behold, from henceforth
all generations shall call me blessed.
For he that is mighty hath done great things for me
and holy is his Name.
And his mercy is on them that fear him
throughout all generations.
He hath shewed strength with his arm
he hath scattered the proud
in the imagination of their hearts.
He hath put down the mighty from their seat
and hath exalted the humble and meek.
He hath filled the hungry with good things
and the rich he hath sent empty away.
He remembering his mercy hath helped his servant Israel
as he promised to our forefathers,
Abraham and his seed for ever.
Read it out loud once. So beautiful.
Catholic doctrine wouldn’t exist without cherry picking Scripture.
They’re just like the Pharisees.
And can’t see it.
Just like the Pharisees.
lol
Amen!
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