Apologists Concerned About Rick Warren's Alignment With 'Holy Father'

Charisma News ^ | 12/3/14 | Mark Andrews

[marshmallow]

"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.

On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).

On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.

It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."

Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."

If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?

"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."

To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....

[nicmarlo]

I'd rather upset a country than God, the One who commanded:

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" (Exodus 20:4)

You'd think even a cursory study of 1 and 2 Kings would help buy a clue as to whether or not God "meant what He said."

[af_vet_1981]

I offer thanks to You,
living and eternal King,
for You have mercifully restored my soul within me;
Your faithfulness is great.

A "marketing technique"? Blame God, I guess!

Although the Gentiles often credit or blame God for their holy tradition, I would say in this case, no. It is a marketing technique. It apparently originated in the USA in the 19th Century yet really took off under Mr./Dr./Rev./Father Billy Graham.

adjective
1.
of, affecting, or belonging to a particular person rather than to 
anyone else.
"her personal fortune was recently estimated at $37 million"
synonyms:	direct, empirical, firsthand, immediate, 
experiential
"I have personal knowledge of the family"
done or made by a particular person; involving the actual 
presence or action of a particular individual.
"the president and his wife made personal appearances 
for the re-election of the state governor"
synonyms:	distinctive, characteristic, unique, individual, 
one's own, particular, peculiar, idiosyncratic, individualized, 
personalized More
2.
of or concerning one's private life, relationships, and emotions 
rather than matters connected with one's public or professional 
career.
"the book describes his acting career and gives little information 
about his personal life"
synonyms:	private, intimate; More
referring to an individual's character, appearance, or private life, 
especially in a hostile or critical way.
"his personal remarks about Mr. Mellor's work ethic were 
unprofessional"
synonyms:	derogatory, ad hominem; More
3.
of or relating to a person's body.
"personal hygiene"
4.
GRAMMAR
of or denoting one of the three persons.
5.
existing as a self-aware entity, not as an abstraction or an 
impersonal force.
"he rejected the notion of a personal God"
nounNORTH AMERICAN

If one is Sola Scriptura, I would expect one would cleave to "my savior" or "our savior" rather than use marketing techniques to try to appeal to the individualism, rebelliousness, and separatism of Americans. I understand the desire among the Gentiles to develop their own personal holy tradition, I really do. It is utter foolishness to introduce Yeshua as one's personal Messiah. Mr. and Mrs. O'Malley, may I present to you to my personal wife ?

[nicmarlo]

If you’d actually read the Gospel of John, you’d understand that Christ made accepting Him as Savior PERSONAL.

There is none so blind as those who refuse to see.

[af_vet_1981]

Jesus said I won't be standing before any White Throne Judgment, that is for the unbelievers, those who did not accept Christ as their Savior.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

As for me, I am born again,

Were you baptized, and if so by which denomination, sect, or group ?

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

[nicmarlo]

Get back to me after you read the Gospel of John.

[CynicalBear]

>>people naturally referred to the church "as a whole."<<

Not really so much as Catholics would like to put forth. They were more often autonomous assemblies (ekklésia) which really has no relationship to what is understood as "church" today.

>>"Kataholos" of course translates into ... you know...<<

Um,,,,,actually no. The Greek word for Catholic is katholikos not Kataholos.

The words kata and holes are two different words. Kata meaning "throughout" and holes meaning all or the whole. When they are used regarding the assemblies they are referring to multiple assemblies not just one organization as in Acts 9.

Acts 9:31 Then had the churches (ekklésia) rest throughout (kata) all (holos) Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

The Greek word katholikos is not found in scripture. The first time that word is used regarding the believers is years after the death of John and only refers to the universality of like beliefs.

Any attempt to inject the word "catholic" into any references in scripture is a tortured twisting of the words.

[CynicalBear]

>>Looks like I struck a nerve.<<

No, just pointing out the hypocrisy.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I am pretty sure you will find people in both Catholic and non-Catholic congregations who actually have not accepted Jesus as their Personal Savior (or the equivalent whether or not they use those words.) These will be people who are not, in fact, disciples, do not practice personal prayer, and have not given their lives over to Christ.

I have noticed that in the Lives of the Saints, so many of them needed to have adult conversion experiences, even though they had been raised in the Church.

St. Benedict, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Ignatius, Bartolome de Las Casas (and of course Augustine, St. Elizabeth Seton, Newman and Chesterton, who in mid-life encountered Christ in a much more immediate way)-- they all became solidly committed Catholics after they had a really up-close-and-personal contact with Our Savior Himself. This resulted in their living their whole lives for Jesus Christ Our Lord.

We no longer have a Christian culture. One of the pluses of a "Christian culture" is that many people are exposed to virtuous cultural practices which keep them from reverting to habitual vice, or at least they are culturally "warned" that there is danger in sin, and they are steered by local customs toward the Gospel.

But one of the less-than-good aspects of a Christian Culture is that many people follow along more from conformism or inertia than from conviction. Some people seemingly have to lie sick in a dungeon as a prisoner of war or take a cannonball to the knee before they really realize that God has come with power, God claims them and God ain't into compromise.

[CynicalBear]

>>Thank you, CB. Excellent Scripture.<<

But the Catholic Church does not destroy them but incorporates them into their worship. It's a direct disobedience of that command by God.

[CynicalBear]

>>(This is where I have the question. Do you mix all the ingredients together on Day 1, and then just stir it twice on Day One and Day 2, OR do you add half the sugar, molasses and ginger to the water on Day One, and add the other half on Day 2?]<<

Day one

2 cups of water
2 Tbs sugar
1 tsp molasses
2 Tbs of grated ginger

Day 2

Add
2 Tbls sugar
1 teas molasses (only a couple of drops is necessary)
2 Tbls grated ginger

Day 3 etc

2 Tbls sugar
1 teas molasses (only a couple of drops is necessary)
2 Tbls grated ginger
I also add about a half cup of water each day after the 2nd day. If the jar gets to full take out some of the old ginger and perhaps some of the water.

When you take out the cup of water to make the batch of ginger ale keep some of the water for the next batch of bug.

The rest you had right. You will notice that when you first fill the bottles and put the caps on you can squeeze the bottles. After about two weeks you will notice that the bottles are really hard as there is lots of pressure inside.

BTW The molasses is necessary only if you use refined white sugar. After doing some research on batches that didn't turn out well I found out that the bacteria need the minerals left in un-refined sugar. I add those minerals back in with the molasses. If you use sugar that still has those in you don't need the molasses.

[Resettozero]

There is little hope for those that deep in that kind of deception.

During the course of this long thread, occasionally I've been tempted to feel the same way as you. Once, I posted my doubt.

Then I remembered how He brought ME out of darkness and taught me how to love the Light more than darkness.

He is ready and willing to do the same for anyone who will give up their religiosity and seek His face with all their heart, soul, mind. If they reach out sincerely to God, they WILL confront Jesus Christ at some point because He is the only Way to God. And He is Lord of all.

[nicmarlo]

Absolutely. Heaven is not obtained but going through the Door, one by one. The Door is Christ.

It’s entry is simple but not given through one’s geneology, ancestry, works education or church attendance (or non-attendance). Christ laid it out and the Apostle Paul explains it further.

There will be a great many surprises as to whom has been let in.

[CynicalBear]

Well said. A couple of thoughts. Scripture refers to all believers as saints. Also the comment “committed Catholics” is dangerous for any true believer. The warnings to the churches in Revelation indicate that their are true and faithful believers in each of those churches but they are still warned to change what they are practising. It would also be wise for Catholics (and those in all churches) to watch as the Catholic Church works to unite all religions into one. That will be the “come out of her my people” religion.

[nicmarlo]

Oh, I heard a statistic this week: about 9/10 of those who have accepted Christ as their Savior are in their teens. So while it is a statistical impossibility that an adult comes to know the Lord and accept Him as their Savior, God is still in the business of impossibilities and the Holy Spirit still can get through to whomsoever God the Father has called.

You are correct, we certainly do not now live in a Christian culture. It’s more akin to the Days of Noah, there is wickedness and violence in the hearts of man continually (including perversity of all kinds).

[Mrs. Don-o]

This ginger-growing thing has me excited. I guess I'll have to wait til Spring. Or maybe I'll buy a root and try to get it started in a pot.

http://www.popus.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=83

I get these Ginger Honey Crystals from "Prince of Peace" (Prince of Peace..... Made in China..... Has a Proverb on the packaging. Hmm.)

I'm thinking I could make some strong ginger tea with these crystals (real ginger+honey+sugar) and then mix it half and half with seltzer water.

This has turned into an auspicious Sunday morning. I thank you, CB. And my arthritic left knee thanks you.

[nicmarlo]

Indeed. Throughout history, there have always been what is called God’s remnant.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Those Catholics who ridicule "personal relationship with Jesus" evidently

,
• ain't got one, or
• do no think that term means what you think it means.

#1728

The way I always explain it to my RCIA students, is that every relationship with God is personal, Him'n'you. But it is never so in an isolated way, since we are all members of the Body of Christ. Being "in Christ", we are also being brought into living, vital contact with the others Members of His Body.

1 Cor. 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Tagline.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"Kata holos" is a phrase, meaning "according to the whole."

"Katholikos" is an adjectival form of the same term.

They were simply descriptive of the church, before they were conceived of as a denominational term.

[Mrs. Don-o]

>Thank you, CB. Excellent Scripture.<<... But the Catholic Church does not destroy them but incorporates them into their worship. It's a direct disobedience of that command by God.

Not following what you're saying here. CB. The Catholic Church does not destroy "what"?

[Mrs. Don-o]

Is the Ginger Bug ready to use to make ginger ale on Day 3, or how long do you have to let to ferment before it’s ready to use?