Posted on 12/03/2014 10:23:22 AM PST by NKP_Vet
In a new video, megachurch leader and author Rick Warren is calling for Christians to unite with Roman Catholics and “Pope Francis,” who Warren recently referred to as the “Holy Father”—a move that is raising concerns among Christians nationwide and is resulting in calls for Warren to repent.
Warren made the comments following his visit to the Vatican last month, where he spoke at an interfaith conference on the “Complementarity of Man and Woman.”
“We have far more in common than what divides us,” he said in the two-minute video released by the Catholic News Service on Wednesday, described as being an outline for “an ecumenical vision for Catholics and Protestants to work together to defend the sanctity of life, sex and marriage.”
“They would all say, ‘We believe in the Trinity; we believe in the Bible; we believe in the resurrection; we believe in salvation through Jesus Christ,” Warren asserted, speaking of the various denominations within Christianity, of which he included Roman Catholicism. “These are the big issues.”
The author of the bestselling book “The Purpose Driven Life” then sought to defend Catholics from those who take issue with the practice of seeking the intercession of Mary and the various deceased persons that have been sainted by the Vatican.
“Sometimes protestants think that Catholics worship Mary like she’s another god, but that’s not exactly Catholic doctrine,” Warren contended. “People say, ‘What are the saints all about? Why are you praying to the saints?’ And when you understand what they mean by what they’re saying, there’s a whole lot more commonality [that we have with Roman Catholics].”
“There’s still real differences—no doubt about that,” Warren stated. “But the most important thing is, if you love Jesus, we’re on the same team.”
He closed by speaking of his belief that Christians and Catholics serve as co-laborers for the cause of defending life and family.
“When it comes to the family, we are co-workers in the field in this for the protection of the sanctity of life, the sanctity of sex and the sanctity of marriage,” Warren said. “So, there’s a great commonality and there’s no division on any of those three.”
But Warren’s comments have raised concern from Christian leaders nationwide, who are now calling the Saddleback leader to repentance. Matt Slick of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM) repudiated each of Warren’s points.
“Sure, there are Catholics who love the real Christ, the one who died on the cross for our sins. That is not the problem,” he said. “The problem is the Roman Catholic Church’s false teachings concerning Mary and salvation.”
“Rick Warren says both the Catholics and the Protestants believe in the Bible. But, there is a significant difference between the Bible of the Protestants and the Roman Catholic Church, which has added seven books,” Slick wrote. “[T]here are numerous problems in the apocryphal books, such as the teaching of salvation by works [and] the offering of money for the sins of the dead.”
“Warren implies that both Protestants and Catholics have the same view of salvation,” he continued. “Though it’s technically correct to say that Catholics believe in salvation through Jesus Christ, they reject justification by faith alone in Christ alone. Instead, it teaches that good works of various kinds are necessary for salvation.”
The Christian apologist then pointed to several Roman Catholic teachings on Mary, mainly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), such as that Mary “by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation” and that “[b]y asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All-Holy One.”
“Rick Warren has not only failed to recognize the problems in these serious areas, but he has lent his credibility as a Protestant pastor in support of the Roman Catholic Church,” Slick wrote. “This should never be done by any Protestant pastor who takes the Bible seriously. I must conclude that Mr. Warren does not take the word of God seriously and/or he does not understand the damnable teachings of Roman Catholicism regarding salvation.”
“Rick Warren needs to repent,” he said.
That was a very good reply. I can almost see the self-righteous Pharisee plucking out an eye, just so he can taunt Jesus over it. & your hypothetical reply for Jesus seems entirely plausible.
Plus, it is immanently debatable whether a Pharisee would have taken the ‘You can’t count’ route, or would simply have pointed out to Jesus that he was adding commands that are not included in the Mosaic Law. A Pharisee would have taken modifications to the Mosaic Law very seriously. Perhaps a more likely response would have been, ‘Book, chapter and verse, ‘Teacher.’ I have studied the Mosaic Law all my life, and these additional commands with which you seek to burden us are nowhere to be found in it.” After all, challenging Jesus’ authority was usually a Pharisee’s first move in confronting Him.
I do wonder about the proffered interpretation of the Rich Young Ruler. In Mark 10:21 we receive this powerful and amazing insight:
‘Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”’
It seems unlikely Jesus would have experienced such a reaction were the Rich Young Ruler either dishonest or hypocritically deluded. A more likely explanation is that Jesus looked upon a sincere man who had devoted himself to keeping the Law from his youth up. Jesus loved that about him, and so issued the ultimate challenge. This is consistent with the fact that Jesus appreciated the absence of deceit [see the calling of Nathaniel, at the end of the first chapter of the Gospel of John] and He did not appreciate self-righteousness: see most of His interactions with the Pharisees.
‘I’ll have to leave now, but if you have additional thoughts, have at it. Grace to you.’
Grace and blessings to you as well; I also have appreciated this discussion.
Yes
No, i did not say you did anything dishonestly, but that as engaging in more than cursory research would at least cast doubt on that assertion of "fact," then i said it was more of a wish, but as this rhetorical language imputes motive then i should have said this seems to be more of a hopeful conclusion than the product of diligent search. I've done it myself at times.
I had started to like the RL forum for the very reason that I don’t get informed by others of my motives here. . That is a welcome change from most forums.
Well, i had just come from another forum, and that was mild, and preventing any like comment can foster poster who are far too sensitive, and or carry a victim entitlement mentality with them, which we have seen evidenced in other threads.
If the best and most reliable included it, the NASB would show those words as part of the text, rather than as a footnote.
That is simply another assertion that is non-fact, whether one like it or not, as it presumes the very thing i showed as being very debatable, that about 5% of the mss with their discrepancies are more accurate than the rest. Citing the absence of the qualifier from the "earliest=best" mass, when the absence is due to them not even having Mt. 5:22 at all, is certainly a specious argument.
On the basis of "earlier is better" than other copies, which can be copies of even earlier mss, the conclusion is also reached (debated here ) that Mark 16:9-10 does not belong in the Bible based on it being absent from "the oldest Greek, Latin, Syriac, Coptic, and Armenian manuscripts,", despite what 99.9% of the Greek manuscripts, 99% of the Syriac manuscripts, and 99.99% of the Latin manuscripts, and four second-century witnesses, over 40 other Roman-Empire-era witnesses evidence to the contrary. (More here ).
Christian faith seems to have done quite well with its great revivals before some men removed And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. (Mark 16:20)
I did, however, make a mistake. I assumed the online version of the New American Standard Bible was the same as the printed version. It seemed like a safe assumption but it was false.
You would have to do far more research on this to call something a fact.
assume that the very best Greek mss do include ‘without cause’. This only qualifies being “angry” with a brother. It doesn’t apply to saying ‘You fool.”
Of-course it does, as both are obviously conditional in the light of the rest of Scripture, which are complementary, not contradictory. Neither Moses nor the Lord or His own sinned by being angry at others.
[Note that in the NASB translation, saying to a brother ‘you fool’ is a separate sentence altogether.
And which is another invalid argument, as not only is their preference, but it is part of the same speech regadless.
Also, much has been made of the fact that Matt. 5:21 supposedly proscribes ‘killing.’ The NASB translated the verse/word as: “You have heard it said ‘You shall not commit murder’.” etc. It is not ‘killing’ that is proscribed; it is murder.
It is the word used in reiterating the 5th commandment in the NT, so we can leave that one as meaning murder, even if it may not always mean that (i am not going study the LXX). But yet you must also hold that being angry is unconditionally wrong, and thus the Lord's disciples always were when angry at someone, versus only when its cause was unjust, unholy. There simply is no change from the conditional nature to an unconditional, unless one dismisses the rest of Scripture.
As to the fact that God is permitted, by virtue of His sovereignty and omniscience, to do some things that we, His finite and mortal creations are proscribed from doing, I can’t argue it any better than I have.
Indeed not, as while your premise is true, it does not translate into your conclusion. For what you need to show is that,
1. The Lord in His incarnation excepted Himself in a moral command He required the disciples to obey, including if they were in a certain condition, so that He could get angry at someone but they could not, and He could call someone a fool or similar name, but they could not, but for which you have zero proof.
2. Only the use of "fool" is prohibited, not similar invectives such as being "vipers," liars, lazy gluttons, whitewashed walls, etc. Which restriction lacks warrant and would be incongruous.
3. The Lord called the Scribes and Pharisees and like enemies "brothers"(adelphos), so that the injunction against calling one "Raca" or "fool" applies to all, for which there is also no evidence.
4.4. That the injunction against calling one a "fool" stands on its own, not to be examined in the context of what precedes it. so there cannot be any allowance of change from the conditional nature to an unconditional. Or that being angry is also unconditionally wrong as calling one a fool or the like. And thus the disciples always were when they did so.
5. That "shall be in danger of hell fire" means one who calls one a fool is automatically guilty, based upon the premise that to be "in danger of" the judgment/council/hell fire" cannot mean "is subject to" such, since the word for "in" is not in the Greek, and the word for "of" is missing or can mean "to," and the word for "danger "enochos," can also mean "subject," so that as in killing, the penalty one is in danger of could be contingent upon one being guilty of what he is warned about, as that guilt is conditional, as killing is.
And you also will find far more learned men than me and scholars rejecting your wooden superficial exegesis.
End of discussion.
For anyone curious about the NSAB, here is a short but informative article about it. If you want accuracy in translation, it is simply superb.
Its NASB, and is better than most others as it is more of a word-for-word translations versus the more interpretive paraphrased and "dynamic equivalence" translations that make up the Bible. But it is also a product of the dubious or questionable "earlier=better" premise. I am "married to the KJV after 25 years or so, and find it trust worthy and anointed, have no real problem with archaic words. And to which the West owes so much to.
In 1995, the Lockman Foundation
Which copyrights it to make money, as most others (not simply contrary to how Christian ministry is operate by faith, in my opinion. (Mt. 10:8-10; Acts 20:33-35; 1Tim. 5:17,18; 2Co. 9) Ministers should be paid, but serve regardless, and ministries may ask a price from believers to cover cost, but not restrict usage by criminalizing free sharing, but allow and even encourage sharing what they produce .
Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well: Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles. We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers to the truth. (3 John 6-8)
Enough said
This can be understood from a Jewish perspective. Compare Matthew and Hebrews with the traditional obligation of every Jew to be a martyr rather than commit one of the three cardinal sins, which certainly covers sexual molestation of children. It is better to cut off one's hand, or die, than to profane God's name with certain sins. At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! 8Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. 12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
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Elsie, one of the biggest problems with your response here is that you are trying to insert words and ideas into those Bible texts and quotes from Jesus Christ which are simply not there.
For example, do you see the word "all" in front of "the works that I do" in that Bible text I posted? It is not there, Elsie, and to assume that it is, is to assume a complete falsehood.
When Jesus said "he who believes in me will also do the works that I do", he did not say "he who believes in me will also do all the works that I do". He did say that "he who believes in me" will "do the works" though, whether you like it or not. When Jesus said "works", Jesus meant "works", not some fuzzy, transient, ephemeral, angelic thoughts and fleeting butterfly feelings.
God sometimes performs miracles in areas involving things believers are praying for, but what other kinds of "works" did Jesus do that He says true believers in Him would also actually do?
Jesus specifies various works like that in a number of places. A good place to start is Matthew 25:31-46:
Some "works" Jesus did which He wants those who believe in Him to also do:
Jesus did those works, and He says that real believers will also do the works He did, and that God will help those real believers do those things in some unspecified way. (Again, do not try to add the word "all" there, or add the phrase "in an identical miraculous way", because those words would be coming strictly from Elsie, not from Jesus, and would falsify the Gospel quote.) Stick to what Jesus actually said.
(Jesus also said believers would do even more than He did, and that also is very true, again, in a limited, human way, and Jesus promised God's help to do that in some undefined way, as needed.) In His time on earth before His crucifixion, Jesus did all His earthly work in a limited geographical area, and His work involved limited numbers of people. His believing followers in His Church have taken His Gospel message much farther ("to the ends of the earth"), and have helped (sometimes directly, sometimes through financial support, and in various other ways) to feed far more than 5,000 people, and to visit far more sick and imprisoned people (via better travel methods and new technologies), etc. (A good teaching sermon on the beatitudes on the Catholic Network EWTN that gets broadcast through various technologies all around the world, is heard by far more people than the number of people who actually heard the "Sermon on the Mount" from Jesus live.)
It is always better to honestly stick to what is actually written in the Bible, and not add one's own words here and there, or change words, or delete words, in order to try to make the teachings in the Bible seem to more closely match up with one's own erroneous beliefs.
When the day of judgment comes, God is not going to care at all about whether any of us won or lost an argument on the internet, but, rather, whether we were honestly open to accepting the truths of God when they were presented to us, and did not allow puffed-up pride and egotistical arrogance (like that of Lucifer) to get in the way of our learning and accepting those truths. (This applies to all of us.)
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CynicalBear, read what my post #537 actually said again, because you are mischaracterizing it very badly. What I actually said was that the word "believe" actually means something, and it does not mean just to concede the existence of Jesus, which even Satan (and his demons) most certainly do (and did).
For example, read this:
✝============================================================✝
And when He came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demoniacs met Him, coming out of the tombs, so fierce that no one could pass that way. And behold, they cried out, "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"
Matthew 8:28-29✝============================================================✝
Re:566, well written.
FOTFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A CATHOLIC is complaining about THAT???????
Stick to what Jesus actually said.
Physician, heal thyself.
No. What God cares about in the judgment is whether we believed on the name of the only Son of God.
John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Faith is the starting point when speaking about the judgment. Consider Matthew, James, and Revelation. Notice that those in the parable are all servants of the LORD Jesus Christ and he initially gave all of them his goods. He requires we do works of faith (not of the law). For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. 16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. 18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. 4 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Then it surely is evidence that your Catholics are teaching me well; don't you think?
That was a very timely and excellent post. It is always good to be reminded of what Jesus considers vitally, crucially important. As you noted, Jesus spells it out specifically in Matt. 25:
35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
Jesus was describing some of the acts of agape love. Of course, the ultimate act of agape was Jesus giving his life for us on the cross. Interestingly, He didn’t take that opportunity to say, ‘You fools, don’t you understand what you are doing?’ Rather, He said, ‘Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.’
The Apostle Paul, too, wrote about love. It’s a fairly short chapter, 1 Corinthians 13. You can read the entire chapter and not find one instance of saying ‘You fool’ to anyone. In fact, when you read Paul’s description of love, calling people a fool to their face seems far removed from the word picture he paints.
Thanks again for your post. Here is my favorite part:
“When the day of judgment comes, God is not going to care at all about whether any of us won or lost an argument on the internet”
Amen.
It would depend on the person themselves, the situation and circumstance to which was being counseled. Apparent, on occasion Jesus thought it effective.
Thank you for your reply. That was not an answer my question, however. Is there an example of advice or counsel that could *only* be given by including ‘you fool’? I.e.: advice or counsel which could be given to a person, which requires the inclusion of ‘you fool,’ but which could *not* be given with the omission of those words?
Matthew 23:16-19
Verse 17 — -”You blind fools!”
Verse 19 — -”You blind fools!”
Did Jesus violate and defy His own words once again? Here is a situation in which Jesus thought it appropriate to define them, and advise them they were fools for believing the way they did. Sometimes strong language is needed in order to get folks attention. “Could Jesus have made a better choice of words in this encounter, or was calling the “blind fools” appropriate? We might also note that Jesus (in context), when He forbade the calling of another “a fool” used the term brother. Only those who truly know Christ, who have truly been born again via genuine faith can be considered a true brother or sister in the faith. The Scribes and Pharisees were false teachers, and so it is with many among God’s people today. God’s people are often foolish in that they are led astray by fools.
Still didn’t answer my question. Answers to questions I didn’t ask, but no answer to the question I did ask.
“What kind of advise or counsel can you not give to a person without literally saying, “You fool”? Are you unable to advise a person that he or she is lost without Christ unless you are able to say, “You fool” in the process?”
Quite frankly, when one has accepted the advice of the ungodly, stands in the way way of sinners. and sits in the seat of scorners, they have reached the bottom of the barrel. They have followed that path of regression, deterioration, and degeneration to the extent that “fool” is the only proper diagnosis left, and there is not left to say. If you were a doctor who new your 35 year old patient were going to die if his cancer were not cut out, and he replied to you with “shut up doctor, you don’t know what you’re talking about, and the cancer will not kill me because I refuse to believe it will. There’s nothing left for the doctor to say, the man has gone over the edge in his foolish thinking to the extent of becoming a fool, and he needs to know it. And true love would hit him with the truth, hoping to bring him to his senses, as harsh and mean-spirited as it may seam.
‘And true love would hit him with the truth, hoping to bring him to his senses, as harsh and mean-spirited as it may seam.’
Where is the evidence that this method ever works? Do you have a link to someone’s personal testimony to the effect that they came to their senses after being called a fool to their face? I have sat in the congregation and listened to hundreds of testimonies, all kinds and types. No one ever hinted or intimated that being called a fool helped them either to come to Christ or to get back on track, spiritually speaking. If the method you are promoting worked, there would be some evidence of it somewhere.
I mentioned two prominent former atheists who had converted. Lewis never mentioned, nor was it cited about him, that believers said to him, ‘You fool” while he was still an atheist. If it had happened, it strains credulity to believe it would have hastened his conversion. It might actually have precluded it. The same with other former-atheists, unless someone can provide a link where they thank the person who called them a fool for their ‘tough love.’ Of course, there is no such link. Human nature doesn’t work that way.
Someone has commented on the harsh words Jesus dispensed. If you study them, He was often, if not always, speaking to the very individuals who had committed the Unforgivable Sin. I.e.: the Pharisees who, after seeing an awesome exhibit of the power of the Holy Spirit, attributed it to Satan. So in a very real sense, Jesus’ words witnessed more to the bystanders than to the individuals whom He excoriated.
We, not being omniscient, are not on such firm footing when it comes to identifying those who have committed the Unforgivable Sin. I learned this in first year Greek. The Prof told us about the first church he’d been assigned to pastor. In due course he identified two individuals in the larger community whom he believed had committed the Unforgivable Sin. He had evidence that this was so. & yet by the time he left that pastorship, both individuals had given their lives to Christ.
We just don’t see things as clearly as God sees them. Therefore we must exercise more caution with our Christian liberties. Unless someone can produce actual evidence that saying, ‘You fool’ to a person produces the desired result, this is a pronouncement we need to avoid. All the more so since Jesus forbade it, in the Matt 5:22 vs that got this whole discussion started.
“Where is the evidence that this method ever works?”
Jesus used it, was He a failure, did He know what He was doing? Was there not a better method or way that Jesus could have approached these individuals? Apparently not, else He would have used it.
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