Posted on 12/03/2014 10:23:22 AM PST by NKP_Vet
In a new video, megachurch leader and author Rick Warren is calling for Christians to unite with Roman Catholics and “Pope Francis,” who Warren recently referred to as the “Holy Father”—a move that is raising concerns among Christians nationwide and is resulting in calls for Warren to repent.
Warren made the comments following his visit to the Vatican last month, where he spoke at an interfaith conference on the “Complementarity of Man and Woman.”
“We have far more in common than what divides us,” he said in the two-minute video released by the Catholic News Service on Wednesday, described as being an outline for “an ecumenical vision for Catholics and Protestants to work together to defend the sanctity of life, sex and marriage.”
“They would all say, ‘We believe in the Trinity; we believe in the Bible; we believe in the resurrection; we believe in salvation through Jesus Christ,” Warren asserted, speaking of the various denominations within Christianity, of which he included Roman Catholicism. “These are the big issues.”
The author of the bestselling book “The Purpose Driven Life” then sought to defend Catholics from those who take issue with the practice of seeking the intercession of Mary and the various deceased persons that have been sainted by the Vatican.
“Sometimes protestants think that Catholics worship Mary like she’s another god, but that’s not exactly Catholic doctrine,” Warren contended. “People say, ‘What are the saints all about? Why are you praying to the saints?’ And when you understand what they mean by what they’re saying, there’s a whole lot more commonality [that we have with Roman Catholics].”
“There’s still real differences—no doubt about that,” Warren stated. “But the most important thing is, if you love Jesus, we’re on the same team.”
He closed by speaking of his belief that Christians and Catholics serve as co-laborers for the cause of defending life and family.
“When it comes to the family, we are co-workers in the field in this for the protection of the sanctity of life, the sanctity of sex and the sanctity of marriage,” Warren said. “So, there’s a great commonality and there’s no division on any of those three.”
But Warren’s comments have raised concern from Christian leaders nationwide, who are now calling the Saddleback leader to repentance. Matt Slick of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM) repudiated each of Warren’s points.
“Sure, there are Catholics who love the real Christ, the one who died on the cross for our sins. That is not the problem,” he said. “The problem is the Roman Catholic Church’s false teachings concerning Mary and salvation.”
“Rick Warren says both the Catholics and the Protestants believe in the Bible. But, there is a significant difference between the Bible of the Protestants and the Roman Catholic Church, which has added seven books,” Slick wrote. “[T]here are numerous problems in the apocryphal books, such as the teaching of salvation by works [and] the offering of money for the sins of the dead.”
“Warren implies that both Protestants and Catholics have the same view of salvation,” he continued. “Though it’s technically correct to say that Catholics believe in salvation through Jesus Christ, they reject justification by faith alone in Christ alone. Instead, it teaches that good works of various kinds are necessary for salvation.”
The Christian apologist then pointed to several Roman Catholic teachings on Mary, mainly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), such as that Mary “by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation” and that “[b]y asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All-Holy One.”
“Rick Warren has not only failed to recognize the problems in these serious areas, but he has lent his credibility as a Protestant pastor in support of the Roman Catholic Church,” Slick wrote. “This should never be done by any Protestant pastor who takes the Bible seriously. I must conclude that Mr. Warren does not take the word of God seriously and/or he does not understand the damnable teachings of Roman Catholicism regarding salvation.”
“Rick Warren needs to repent,” he said.
One clarification, Elsie. In the post you responded to, I was using ‘you’ generically, not about you specifically. For clarity, I should have said, ‘When a person specifically calls someone a fool, he/she is in violation of Jesus’ specific command.’ That is what I had in mind, anyway, just so you know.
I understood that. Thanks for the clarification anyway.
We think faster (and more) than we type.
Mom more than dad.
Great analogy. Many WILL get the point.
It’s doubtful that many Catholics will.
Some of that stuff that they purport has been so drummed into their heads that it is almost impossible for them to step back and see it from another point of view.
Anything to side step the issue.
Thanks, Elsie. Much appreciated.
Thanks, metmom. It is a big challenge for people to see things from other people’s POV. Not many truly succeed at it. Those that do...it must be a gift from God.
RF rules prohibit the kind of response that that deserves.
So I'll say this. That's a bunch of nonsense. I am subject only to Christ.
No religious leader on earth can claim any authority over me because no religious leader on earth has any authority over me.
Those claims of total Roman authority are a power grab, plain and simple. The Catholic church clearly cannot stand the thought that people both aren't under its control and don't even recognize it.
If Catholics so choose to put themselves under the authority of that denomination, that's their choice, but it's not mine nor is it any others.
And Catholic church claiming they have authority over others, does not make it so.
Fantasywriter made a great point.
Eat your heart out Catholic church. I don't belong to it and will not put myself under it's claimed, but illegitimate authority.
Whom the Son has set free is free indeed. No way I'm going back under and into the bondage of a works based religious system, turning my back on the Christ who died to save me from my sins.
Well started out my Army service in charge of a forward observer team. Observations just come up now and then:)
And let's look at the options for a Roman Catholic who falls under a bad priest, or Pope: a)Ride it out. b)Ride it Out c)Ride it out.
That’s usually how it works in America, no matter what the denominations are.
Hardly. Because he doesn't look to man and he doesn't trust in man. Because the Prots faith is built on the Rock of Christ, who will not fail, their faith is not shaken by the failings of a man.
For the protestant the only choice to them for such things is either a) fire their leaders or b) move on and find another ecclesial community or c) start their own.
If he's done something illegal, like molesting children, then we also have the option of blowing him in to the authorities and the secular authorities have put the Catholic church to shame in their ability to deal with child molesters.
Hardly. Because he doesn't look to man and he doesn't trust in man. Because the Prots faith is built on the Rock of Christ, who will not fail, their faith is not shaken by the failings of a man.
For the protestant the only choice to them for such things is either a) fire their leaders or b) move on and find another ecclesial community or c) start their own.
If he's done something illegal, like molesting children, then we also have the option of blowing him in to the authorities and the secular authorities have put the Catholic church to shame in their ability to deal with child molesters.
You're welcome.
Here is the issue with your analogy. Yes, I am subject to the laws of the USA, and to the laws of GA, whether or not I agree with them. But this is due to (1) the fact of my citizenship, and (2) the state’s ability and willingness to enforce its laws.
To your first point, just as you are a citizen are you not also a member of Christ's Church? Secondly, I don't think one can rely upon the "might makes right" argument (Which I am invoking in response to your France/Mormon argument) What is being argued is that because there is no enforcement mechanism this somehow negates the truthfulness of the issue.
It would be like arguing that because we are not currently able to impose our will on the rest of the populace with regards to an issue like abortion then the truthfulness of our position is in doubt.
I am subject to Jesus as Lord and Savior by choice. I obey Him not via compulsion, such as is exercised by the secular state, but from love and devotion, as an appropriate response to all that He has done and given for me.
As we all are I'm sure. I would caution, however, about viewing this with the same frame of reference we would secular matters. Even though the analogy we're using references the secular it's important to keep in mind that what we are discussing are matters of the spirit. It is the carnal mind that incorrectly superimposes the material onto the spiritual because of prejudice.
I am not subject to the Pope on any basis. I was not born into a Catholic family, or for that matter I was not born in an area dominated by Catholicism (as if that matters, in this case). I do not choose on any basis to subject myself to the Roman Pontiff. I actively choose not to. Therefore I am not subject to him on any level.
As a member of Christ's Church your being subject to the Pope is already established. Jesus gave Peter and his successors the command. It's really not about what you choose or not choose. You're a member of the Body of Christ. There is an unfortunate tendency amongst American Protestants to view this through "American" eyes. Viewing being subject to the Pope as an infringement on their autonomy. This mindset is peppered throughout their speech: Me, My, I, etc. What's sorely lacking is any acknowledgement of their membership in the Church.
Being part of the Church is so much bigger and beyond all of these carnal, secular concerns. Even for those non-baptized persons:
Those who have not been baptized are also put in an imperfect communion with the Church, even if they do not realize it, if they possess the virtues of faith, hope, and charity. Pope Pius XII explains that the "juridical bonds [of the Church] in themselves far surpass those of any other human society, however exalted; and yet another principle of union must be added to them in those three virtues, Christian faith, hope, and charity, which link us so closely to each other and to God. . . . [I]f the bonds of faith and hope, which bind us to our Redeemer in his Mystical Body are weighty and important, those of charity are certainly no less so. . . . Charity . . . more than any other virtue binds us closely to Christ" (Mystici Corporis 70, 73). [1]
Likewise your claim that I am somehow subject to the Roman Pontiff [the quote in question, issued ex cathedra, pertained to the Pope specifically] is not valid. By no definition of the word ‘subject’ am I so subjected. For example, if the Pope said, ‘Obey the commands of Christ,’ I would continue to do so—but only because this is what Jesus commanded, not because of anything the Pope said. If, by contrast, the Pope commanded all Christians everywhere to say a rosary, I would not do it. That is because I am not subject to the Pope or to his edicts.
Do you obey the command of Christ to eat His flesh and drink His blood?
[1] The Necessity of Being Catholic - Catholic Culture. (n.d.). Retrieved from http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=3447
What a pity. I think I'd relish being subjected to the uncensored tirades of the protestant contingent. You are more than welcome to Freepmail me with your unfettered views.
So I'll say this. That's a bunch of nonsense. I am subject only to Christ.
And His Church.
No religious leader on earth can claim any authority over me because no religious leader on earth has any authority over me.
How very circular.
Those claims of total Roman authority are a power grab, plain and simple. The Catholic church clearly cannot stand the thought that people both aren't under its control and don't even recognize it.
The carnal mind at work. Conflating the material with the spiritual and viewing it all through the prism of power and control. Protestant autonomy must be preserved at all costs. It's the source of their power. I decide. There can be no surrendering to Christ with that view. God is so much bigger than the prejudices of the Anti-Catholic.
Eat your heart out Catholic church. I don't belong to it and will not put myself under it's claimed, but illegitimate authority.
You're already here. Your baptism assured it.
Whom the Son has set free is free indeed. No way I'm going back under and into the bondage of a works based religious system, turning my back on the Christ who died to save me from my sins.
You're always welcome to return home. We're waiting for you. We love you.
What issue is that? The sinfulness of man? Is this something new? Is there something I should be doing? Wringing my hands, perhaps?
There is absolutely NOTHING in the Bible that suggests Christians are subject to the pope. Christ, yes. A non biblic man made office....no, sir.
Thanks for this reply as well. I am about out of time for today, so this will not be an in depth reply. However, I want to address your comment that as an American I would view being subject to the Pope as an infringement on my or my Christian assembly’s autonomy. (’Assembly’ being a more Scriptural word for the earthly body of Christ than ‘church.’ It is a more accurate translation of the Greek word that is traditionally translated ‘church.’]
Actually it is just the opposite. There is no autonomy in being a member of the body of Christ. Paul covered this issue in 1 Cor. 12, iirc. Again, if memory serves, that is the chapter where Paul says an eye cannot reject the ear, nor the ear reject the foot. All are members of the body. Autonomy is not an option.
What we reject is being told we are subject to a human being, when in fact we are subject to Jesus Himself. Read your entire New Testament. There is nothing in it about the various assemblies all being subject to one human, and certainly not to Peter. Following the good confession, Jesus said to Peter:
‘I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.’
The Greek word for ‘Peter’ there is ‘Petros,’ masculine.
The Greek word for ‘rock’ in that passage is ‘petra,’ feminine.
The rock upon which Jesus built the church was not a fallible, sinful man, but the perfect confession made by that man. I.e.: the rock is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
Thus, just as I take all Jesus’ commands as inescapable obligations, I also take the following to heart, from Matt. 23:9:
“Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.”
Scripturally, it is an actual sin to call a human being ‘Holy Father.’ There is only one Holy Father. He is part of the Triune God, the One to whom I am subject.
Here is the definition of ‘subject’:
‘Being under the dominion or authority, as of a sovereign, authority’
I am under God’s dominion, and His alone. You cannot place me under the authority of a sinful, fallible human being simply because you believe it to be so, and have been taught that it is so. God does not give His glory to any other. Peter is not the foundation upon which the church is built. God clarified this, so there would be no question:
1 Cor. 3:11:
‘For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.’
Jesus is the foundation, which is what the Good Confession affirms. The difference between sinful, fallible Peter and sinless, infallible Jesus Christ is the difference between your faith and mine. Yours is established on a mere human being and his successors; mine is established on Jesus Christ alone.
Catholics have the fullness of Truth. Which is not determined by the sinfulness of anyone in authority. Bad priest? Bad Pope? Whatever. The confected Eucharist is still the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. Our faith is not in man but in Christ.
As opposed to the protestant, their ecclesial structures ensure the development of personality cults. "I like what he says." "I like how she preaches." "I find it more satisfying that this person preaches this point of emphasis." etc. This is their theology. It's painfully embarrassing to listen to protestants compare notes about their favorites. Especially when they have "no respecter of persons" on the tips of their tongues at every turn. And when it all comes crashing down they are left with nothing. An empty hole to be filled by the next one. And the theology will conform.
Quick correction. Instead of saying:
‘You cannot place me under the authority of a sinful, fallible human being simply because you believe it to be so, and have been taught that it is so.’
I should have said,
‘No one can place me under the authority of a sinful, fallible human being simply because he/she believes it to be so, and has been taught that it is so.’
Accept my apologies. I am absolutely not trying to make this personal. I’m just taking a few posts to get the hang of it. Your patience and understanding is appreciated.
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