Posted on 12/03/2014 10:23:22 AM PST by NKP_Vet
In a new video, megachurch leader and author Rick Warren is calling for Christians to unite with Roman Catholics and “Pope Francis,” who Warren recently referred to as the “Holy Father”—a move that is raising concerns among Christians nationwide and is resulting in calls for Warren to repent.
Warren made the comments following his visit to the Vatican last month, where he spoke at an interfaith conference on the “Complementarity of Man and Woman.”
“We have far more in common than what divides us,” he said in the two-minute video released by the Catholic News Service on Wednesday, described as being an outline for “an ecumenical vision for Catholics and Protestants to work together to defend the sanctity of life, sex and marriage.”
“They would all say, ‘We believe in the Trinity; we believe in the Bible; we believe in the resurrection; we believe in salvation through Jesus Christ,” Warren asserted, speaking of the various denominations within Christianity, of which he included Roman Catholicism. “These are the big issues.”
The author of the bestselling book “The Purpose Driven Life” then sought to defend Catholics from those who take issue with the practice of seeking the intercession of Mary and the various deceased persons that have been sainted by the Vatican.
“Sometimes protestants think that Catholics worship Mary like she’s another god, but that’s not exactly Catholic doctrine,” Warren contended. “People say, ‘What are the saints all about? Why are you praying to the saints?’ And when you understand what they mean by what they’re saying, there’s a whole lot more commonality [that we have with Roman Catholics].”
“There’s still real differences—no doubt about that,” Warren stated. “But the most important thing is, if you love Jesus, we’re on the same team.”
He closed by speaking of his belief that Christians and Catholics serve as co-laborers for the cause of defending life and family.
“When it comes to the family, we are co-workers in the field in this for the protection of the sanctity of life, the sanctity of sex and the sanctity of marriage,” Warren said. “So, there’s a great commonality and there’s no division on any of those three.”
But Warren’s comments have raised concern from Christian leaders nationwide, who are now calling the Saddleback leader to repentance. Matt Slick of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM) repudiated each of Warren’s points.
“Sure, there are Catholics who love the real Christ, the one who died on the cross for our sins. That is not the problem,” he said. “The problem is the Roman Catholic Church’s false teachings concerning Mary and salvation.”
“Rick Warren says both the Catholics and the Protestants believe in the Bible. But, there is a significant difference between the Bible of the Protestants and the Roman Catholic Church, which has added seven books,” Slick wrote. “[T]here are numerous problems in the apocryphal books, such as the teaching of salvation by works [and] the offering of money for the sins of the dead.”
“Warren implies that both Protestants and Catholics have the same view of salvation,” he continued. “Though it’s technically correct to say that Catholics believe in salvation through Jesus Christ, they reject justification by faith alone in Christ alone. Instead, it teaches that good works of various kinds are necessary for salvation.”
The Christian apologist then pointed to several Roman Catholic teachings on Mary, mainly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), such as that Mary “by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation” and that “[b]y asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All-Holy One.”
“Rick Warren has not only failed to recognize the problems in these serious areas, but he has lent his credibility as a Protestant pastor in support of the Roman Catholic Church,” Slick wrote. “This should never be done by any Protestant pastor who takes the Bible seriously. I must conclude that Mr. Warren does not take the word of God seriously and/or he does not understand the damnable teachings of Roman Catholicism regarding salvation.”
“Rick Warren needs to repent,” he said.
Double speak reigns in the Catholic Church world.
It is not set aside. Membership in Christ's Church is essential for salvation. By definition the Pope is the head of Christ's Church. Whether someone disagrees on the nature of the Christ's Church (visible vs. invisible) or is in imperfect communion is not relevant. They are still subject to his authority.
But it is also possible to be "associated" with or "partially incorporated" into the Catholic Church without being a fully and formally incorporated into it. Vatican II states: "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter" (Lumen Gentium 15). Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church" (Unitatis Redintegratio 3; CCC 838)
So just as one is subject to the laws of their state even if they do not agree with them every Christian is subject to the Roman Pontiff.
There, there; John de Stogumber.
No need to be upset.
We've seen how in this thread alone, many Catholics will NOT follow the pope.
Let your heart be at ease.
Listen to the Voices...
Listen..
listen...
listen...
listen...
listen...
Elements of Style; Version 4.27
That verse works about as well as this one does...
...judge not...
You FOOLISH Galatians! Who has bewitched you?
Galatians 3:1
Proverbs 18:2
A fool has no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.
Were they active?
Thank you for your reply.
Here is the issue with your analogy. Yes, I am subject to the laws of the USA, and to the laws of GA, whether or not I agree with them. But this is due to (1) the fact of my citizenship, and (2) the state’s ability and willingness to enforce its laws.
I am subject to Jesus as Lord and Savior by choice. I obey Him not via compulsion, such as is exercised by the secular state, but from love and devotion, as an appropriate response to all that He has done and given for me.
I am not subject to the Pope on any basis. I was not born into a Catholic family, or for that matter I was not born in an area dominated by Catholicism (as if that matters, in this case). I do not choose on any basis to subject myself to the Roman Pontiff. I actively choose not to. Therefore I am not subject to him on any level.
To give you two examples. France could pass a law stating that all US citizens are subjects of France. It wouldn’t mean anything, since France has no ability to enforce such a decree.
The Mormon church could declare that all Christians are subject to the head of the Mormon church. It wouldn’t mean anything, since Christians everywhere would reject it and Mormons would have no means of countering that rejection.
Likewise your claim that I am somehow subject to the Roman Pontiff [the quote in question, issued ex cathedra, pertained to the Pope specifically] is not valid. By no definition of the word ‘subject’ am I so subjected. For example, if the Pope said, ‘Obey the commands of Christ,’ I would continue to do so—but only because this is what Jesus commanded, not because of anything the Pope said. If, by contrast, the Pope commanded all Christians everywhere to say a rosary, I would not do it. That is because I am not subject to the Pope or to his edicts.
See the difference?
How DARE you point this out!
Why?
If we can't take what the POPE says ex cathdra, a mere layperson that warms the pew ain't gonna give any valid insight.
When you specifically call a person a fool, you are in violation of Jesus’ specific command. Calling someone’s actions foolish, however, is quite different. Take note of what Job said to his wife, when she counseled him to ‘curse God and die.’ He said, [quoting from memory, so a word or two may be slightly off] ‘You speak as the foolish women speak.’
In that statement Job did not sin. He did not call his wife a fool. Rather, he pointed out that in one specific statement she spoke as a foolish woman would speak. There is a big difference between labeling a person a fool—thus violating a direct command of Christ—and pointing out that a specific action or expression is foolish.
It isn’t possible—or at least it is highly, highly unadvisable—for Christians to set aside the direct, specific commands of Jesus. It is very dangerous to even contemplate doing so. I hope no one on this thread considers doing so. It’s just a very, very bad idea.
The Mormon church could declare that all MORMONS are subject to the head of the Mormon church. It wouldn’t mean anything, since 85% of Mormons everywhere would reject it and SLC would have no means of countering that rejection.
(Now that Porter Rockwell's gone...)
How about if MARY said to do it?
No?
How about if some kids from Portugal said that Mary said to do it??
SUREly you'd listen to THEM!!!
ALL?
I thought only the PROPERLY catechized ones did that!
Who knew!!
HMMMmmm...
I see what you mean...
Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
You are right, but it was to a specific statement in post 355 that I was responding. Here is the quote:
• Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam:
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce [ex cathedra] that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
On FR, we're not to call folks LIARS.
We can't call the things they say lies; either.
Oh, I’ve been called a liar on FR more times than I can count. I don’t call people liars in turn, however. Also, my post did not in any way concern the issue of calling people liars. Rather, I quoted from the Sermon on the Mount, re: Jesus command about saying to someone, ‘You fool.’
However, one may quote the Word of God which clearly states, “THE FOOL HAS SAID IN HIS HEART THERE IS NO GOD.”
I might also add that Revelation defines a last day church as a “Great Whore,” an abomination, an apostate church that has united as one, in compromising and adulterating the Word of God, and will rule with the Antichrist until he turns to destroy her.
One thing to note. God can and does call people ‘fools’ specifically. That is His prerogative, since He is God, and fully knows each human heart.
For example, Jesus told the parable of the rich man whose barns overflowed with all his produce. So he built new, bigger barns that could hold his abundance of wealth. God’s reaction was, ‘You fool, this night your life will be demanded of you; and the things you have prepared, to whom will they belong?’
Bottom line. We are prohibited from calling each other fools. Our knowledge of others’ hearts is too limited. God is free to do so, and does; His knowledge of hearts is unlimited.
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