Dear Gabby

Harvesting the Fruit of the Vatican II ^ | July 28, 2014 | Louie Verrecchio

[ebb tide]

A priest looking for advice on how to advance the Church in a fast-paced world so often embroiled in conflict recently approached a well-placed cleric who had been a religious order priest and bishop for many years. In response, the bishop answered, in part, by sharing the following true story:

A priest went as a missionary to an area where for years they had no priest, and evangelicals had arrived. He told me that he went to a woman who had been the teacher of the people and then the principle of the village school.

This lady sat him down and began to insult him forcefully saying, “You abandoned us, left us alone, and I, who in need of God’s Word, had to go to Protestant worship and I became Protestant.”

This young priest, who is meek, who is one who prays, when the woman finished her discourse, said, “Madam, just one word: forgiveness. Forgive us, forgive us. We abandoned the flock.”

The tone of the woman changed. However, she remained Protestant and the priest did not go into the argument of which was the true religion. In that moment, you could not do this. In the end, the lady began to smile and said, “Father, would you like some coffee?”

“Yes, let’s have a coffee,” he replied.

Afterwards, when the priest was about to leave, she said, “Stop here, Father. Come.”

And she led him into the bedroom, opened the closet and there was the image of Our Lady.

“You should know that I never abandoned her. I hid her because of the pastor, but she’s in the home,” the lady said.

It is a story which teaches how proximity, meekness brought about this woman’s reconciliation with the Church, because she felt abandoned by the Church.

And I asked a question of this priest that you should never ask, “And then, how did things turn out? How did things finish?”

But the priest corrected me, saying, “Oh, no, I did not ask anything; she continues to go to Protestant worship, but you can see that she is a woman who prays. She faces the Lord Jesus.” And it did not go beyond that. He did not invite her to return to the Catholic Church.

What is one to make of this “advice” and the bishop giving it? Three things can be said with certainty:

1) This bishop has a very twisted understanding of what it means to be reconciled with the Church. In his mind, a woman who hides her supposed devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary for fear of rebuke from a heretic “pastor,” and who is steadfast in “worshiping” in a heretical community, has undergone a “reconciliation with the Church” presumably because she set her anger aside long enough to have a cup of coffee with a Catholic priest.

2) This bishop has a deficient understanding of the Church’s mission. His inquisitor has been given to believe that priestly work is well done apart from inviting heretics to return to the Catholic Church and the sacraments. He furthermore has been given to believe that he can determine on his own that one outside the Church, with no possibility of being absolved from his or her sins “faces the Lord,” the presumption being that such a person is fine where they are; outside of the solitary Ark of Salvation.

3) This bishop is the current Bishop of Rome; a pope who has demonstrated time and time again an appalling lack of concern for even the most basic duties of his exalted office.

The story above was shared by Pope Francis during a Q&A session with the priests of Caserta that took place on July 26th; it’s just one of a number of things said that day by a Roman Pontiff whose prolific public discourse so often betrays his indifference to the Catholic faith. You may read the exchange in its fullness on the Vatican News website linked above, but be forewarned, it is a gut wrenching experience.

Clearly, the priests of Caserta would have done far better to email their questions to just about any commenter on this blog. (Small compliment, I know.)

[metmom]

Those aren’t prayers.

They’re statements.

[metmom]

That’s not praying to Mary.

[Springfield Reformer]

Here's a command:

After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. John 19:27

Radical abuse of Scripture. Yes, there is a command, but it is Jesus telling John to care for Mary. Not a hint of praying to her. This is demonstrated by the preceding verse:

John 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

Notice how Jesus gives the exact same command in reverse to Mary. He is establishing a new family relationship for both of them. And this made sense under the circumstances. Jesus knew John was going to outlive the other disciples. He was the most logical candidate to care for Mary in her old age. He was just being a good Jew, enlisted here to help Jesus meet His commitments to His earthly parents, "Honor thy father and mother," which is a duty we all have to our own parents. Mary was indeed blessed above all women, for being granted the grace to bring Messiah into the world. But nothing in this passage speaks of prayer to her at all. God will not give His glory to another. See Isaiah 48:11.

[Springfield Reformer]

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Luke 1:28

And she [Elizabeth] cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. Luke 1:42

Neither of those are prayers. The angelic greeting is just a greeting, and an announcement of great blessing. If a greeting can be accounted a prayer, then saying hello to someone on the elevator at work is praying and we are all in a lot of trouble. But of course it isn't, so there's no reason to see this as prayer either.

The greeting of Elizabeth is again a pronouncement of blessing, and here said with great feeling and intensity. But in no sense is Mary being addressed as one with supernatural power to mediate between Elizabeth and God, either in the giving of worship, which Elizabeth would know to be blasphemy to offer to anyone but God, or in the granting of supernatural aid, which is precisely what most people think of on hearing the word "prayer."

But what about the "Hail?" It is simply the word χαιρε ("chaire"), which is basically "cheers!," "be of good cheer!" etc. There is no way to twist that into a term of worship. It's just "Be happy," because something wonderful is going to happen to you. Which is all true. And has nothing whatsoever to do with either worship or prayer.

[daniel1212]

Just how old are you, Moses?

An obvious lack of comprehension on your part, which is necessary in normal life and that of Biblical exchanges. Notice the use of the plural "we," which with 2,000 years being the scope, denotes identification with a historical body of people. I think you get the conveyance.

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Luke 1:28 And she [Elizabeth] cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. Luke 1:42 Did Luther exclude the above from your bible?

What Luther may have done here is irrelevant, but by no means did he (he was more RC on this), but this "proof text" is simply no proof at all. Does your Bible say they prayed to her in Heaven? Do we formulate doctrines from silence or by extrapolating what we reason from physical relations on earth, without even one example or instruction? If this is such a common practice, and it is taught in Scripture, how could the Holy Spirit fail to provide even one example of praying to angels in Heaven in the OT or departed saints in the New?

And in instructing us how to pray, why would Jesus tell us to pray, "Our Mother who art in Heaven..."? And why would the Holy Spirit not be said to cry Mama, mother, since it says He cries, Abba, Father"? (Gal. 4:6) Or will you admit that this practice comes from nebulous oral "tradition," and stop trying to wrest Scripture to compel to support Rome?

[metmom]

Hebrews 4:14-16 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Catholics love to quote Mary's words of *Do whatever He (Jesus) tells you.* and yet are not so great about following His instructions.

Here He tells us how to pray.

Luke 11:1-13 Now Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” And he said to them, “When you pray, say: “Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.” And he said to them, “Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves, for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; and he will answer from within, ‘Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything’? I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs. And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

Jesus promised us that God the Father would hear and answer our prayers.

There is no need to go to another,especially with the thinking that they can more easily obtain for us from God the requests we have.

What an affront to God and His father love for us.

SR, thanks for your wonderful, well thought out and expressed posts.

[Alex Murphy]

But Catholics never post threads that belittle Protestants.

That's okay. They're belittling their own leadership, too:

This bishop is the current Bishop of Rome; a pope who has demonstrated time and time again an appalling lack of concern for even the most basic duties of his exalted office.

[Alex Murphy]

God didn't choose the pope any more than He chooses the POTUS...a bad pope doesn't mean we bail on the Church.

I've heard this line of reasoning before, but IMO it represents a substantial shift that has taken place in Catholic apologetics. What I don't understand is if Christ doesn't pick their pope, why do Catholics still hail the Pope as the Vicar of Christ, and not as the Vicar of the Church?

"I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. … I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit’s role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined....There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!"
-- then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger,
as quoted by Deacon Greg Kandra, from
Does the Holy Spirit pick the pope? Ratzinger didn’t think so.

[metmom]

It’s no wonder Catholics don’t think the Holy Spirit works in the lives of believers to lead them into spiritual truth.

They don’t even believe He leads them in running their own church.

And how does that fit in with an infallible magisterium?

You can’t be infallible when you are depending on human effort and not the Holy Spirit’s guidance and direction.

Honestly, just when you think you’ve heard it all from Catholics, they come along with some other bizarre statement that if a non-Catholic made it would be attacked as *hate*, and it leaves you kind of gobsmacked, wondering why anyone in their right mind would follow a *church* like that.

[boatbums]

But Catholics never post threads that belittle Protestants.

It certainly IS doing that in a backhanded way, but, hard as it is to believe, this is a Roman Catholic posting a thread that belittles other Roman Catholics who don't agree with him and others that since Vatican II the church has been in error. They don't like the ecumenical flavor to what this new Pope, especially, communicates. They are the ones to whom extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is STILL the rock they cling to. Pope Francis, much to their consternation, is WAY too welcoming to other Christian traditions and the changes made to the Catechism incorporating Vat II, referring to its changed text as "reformulated positively", is rejected.

Their dilemma, of course, becomes which dogma to discard - that the Roman Catholic church is infallible or it made errors? Is the Pope the Vicar of Christ, successor to Peter, or did/can "they" get it wrong sometimes?

[boatbums]

WRT: Prayer to Mary

We know from Scripture that Jesus entrusted the care of His mother Mary to John - as he was the ONLY Apostle standing there underneath the cross - all of Jesus' brothers and sisters were also no-shows. Yet in NONE of John's epistles does he ever speak of Mary, what happened to her (she had probably already died when he wrote the last book), that believers must pray to her and entreat her intercession or that she is our spiritual mother. ALL that came about hundreds of years after the last of the Apostles died.

It would be wonderful if Catholics understood that we don't dishonor Mary by rejecting their dogmas. She IS blessed, respected and a great example to all Christians of the kind of faith that should be emulated. I know I certainly see her this way.

[Legatus]

What I don't understand is if Christ doesn't pick their pope, why do Catholics still hail the Pope as the Vicar of Christ, and not as the Vicar of the Church?

I think we have a miscommunication on what the word vicar means, although I think I see where you're coming from.

[BlatherNaut]

Their dilemma, of course, becomes which dogma to discard - that the Roman Catholic church is infallible or it made errors? Is the Pope the Vicar of Christ, successor to Peter, or did/can "they" get it wrong sometimes?

No dilemma whatsoever, since dogma is immutable, VII was pastoral (not infallible) and popes are only infallible under specific conditions.

[Elsie]

Question:And just what the heck is "the solitary Ark of Salvation"?

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[Elsie]

Did Luther exclude the above from your bible?

Where's the PRAYER; Luther hater!

[daniel1212]

Neither of those are prayers.

But RCs excel at extrapolating whatever they want from Scripture, seeing and they have a great deal of liberty to do so, and Scripture is rendered a servant to support Rome, and the weight of its substantiation is not the basis for the veracity of RC teachings.

Thus the explicit instructions on who to address in prayer to heaven, and the direct access Christ enabled by His blood, and the immediate access to Christ Himself as the only and wholly sufficient heavenly intercessor btwn God and man, and the Spirit in us calling to God, and the inexplicable absence of even one example out of the close to 200 prayers in Scripture to anyone in Heaven but the Lord (except by pagans) are dismissed as teaching only God is to be addressed in prayer to Heaven.

And PTDS as a common practice is taught as doctrine based upon an imposed correlation btwn earthly organic relations and that of relations btwn created beings from earth and Heaven. And the offering up of prayers as a memorial by created beings.

And humble Mary is made into an almost almighty demigoddess to whom "Jesus owes His Precious Blood" to,

whose [Mary] merits we are saved by,

who "had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin,"

and "was elevated to a certain equality with the Heavenly Father,"

even so that “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus,"

for indeed saints have "but one advocate," and that is Mary, who "alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation,"

and whose power now "is all but unlimited,"

for indeed she "seems to have the same power as God,"

"surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven,"

so that "the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse."

Moreover, "there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose,"

and who has "authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven,"

including "assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels,"

whom the good angels "unceasingly call out to," greeting her "countless times each day with 'Hail, Mary,' while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests,"

and who (obviously) cannot "be honored to excess,"

and who is (obviously) the glory of Catholic people, whose "honor and dignity surpass the whole of creation." Sources .

Yet as i have said before, one would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, and as having Divine powers and glory, and making offerings and beseeching such for Heavenly help, directly accessed by mental prayer.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

More .

Along with this is reliance upon interpretive statements in the gospels which are compelled to support Rome by ignoring how the rest of the NT manifests their meaning.

Thus the Lord's supper is made into being the "source and summit" of the faith,around which sacrament all else revolves, in which "our redemption is accomplished," with souls gaining spiritual and eternal life thereby, even though this "feast of charity" is only manifestly described once, and in which the church is the body of Christ, which proclaims the Lord's death and their union with Him and each other by how they take part in that communal meal. (1Cor. 11:13-34 )

And being spiritually "nourished" is by "the words of faith and of good doctrine," (1Tim. 4:6) the preaching of which is the main function of NT pastors, not dispensing physical food as "priests," which is not ever shown to be the ordained function of NT priests.

And thus Peter is made to be the first of a line of supreme exalted infallible CEOs that all the church looked to, though the NT nowhere states (interpretative of Mt. 16:18) that He is the rock upon which the church is built, and to whom the church looked to as its supreme exalted infallible head, nor that his office possessed perpetual assured (conditional) infallibility.

But what about the "Hail?" It is simply the word χαιρε ("chaire"), which is basically "cheers!," "be of good cheer!" etc

Consistent with the Catholic technique, Jael must be the fertility saint to pray to:

Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent. (Judges 5:24)

[Elsie]

I just did.

No; you did not.

[Elsie]

Here's a command:

To whom?

[Elsie]

No dilemma whatsoever, since dogma is immutable, VII was pastoral (not infallible) and popes are only infallible under specific conditions.

Ergo...

...a VAST waste of time!

[Elsie]

Vicar:

In canon law, the representative of a person clothed with ordinary ecclesiastical jurisdiction.