Posted on 07/13/2014 6:35:41 AM PDT by marshmallow
Pope Francis promised "solutions" to the issue of priestly celibacy in an interview on Sunday that raised the possibility the Catholic Church could eventually lift a ban on married priests, but was quickly refuted by the Vatican
VATICAN CITY: Pope Francis promised "solutions" to the issue of priestly celibacy in an interview on Sunday that raised the possibility the Catholic Church could eventually lift a ban on married priests, but was quickly refuted by the Vatican.
Interviewed by Italy's La Repubblica daily, Francis also condemned child sex abuse as a "leprosy" in the Church and cited his aides as saying that "the level of paedophilia in the Church is at two per cent".
"That two per cent includes priests and even bishops and cardinals," the pope was quoted as saying.
Asked whether priests might one day be allowed to marry, Francis pointed out that celibacy was instituted "900 years after Our Lord's death" and that clerics can marry in some Eastern Churches under Vatican tutelage.
(Excerpt) Read more at channelnewsasia.com ...
Commend ≠ demand.
Show us where Jesus said that and where Paul demands it.
The Church doesn't force anyone to be celibate. It's a choice men make when they enter the priesthood.
That's nonsense. It's forced on those who enter the priesthood single and if they want to become married they have to leave the priesthood. Saw it in my own family.
Celibacy is a discipline, not a dogma.
Then why not let the men themselves choose whether they want to be single or married priests?
And some married Anglican converts to Roman Rite Catholicism have been allowed to enter the Catholic priesthood.
Then why not let all men be married? Clearly the Catholic church seems to think that they can do their jobs while married or they wouldn't ordain them, so that argument against marriage fails.
For a legitimate basis for the requirement.
I'm just asking why you would accept sound conservative principles on the one hand and reject them on the other.
What sound conservative principles am I doing that with?
Seriously?
Ah, but it's not the only legitimate basis is it? Of course that might be the case for you, but it doesn't necessarily make it so now, does it?
What sound conservative principles am I doing that with?
How about the principle of agency. The principle of being free to enter into contracts, etc. But I suppose the calvinistic view doesn't allow for any of that.
No, it's not, metmom.
Look, Iscool just told me that "No one in my church promotes any one unmarried to higher positions...In fact, there are no higher positions than a pastor or elder..." So therefore, is it fair to say that there is no choice about marriage for someone who is going to be a pastor or elder?
That marriage is imposed on those who would choose to be pastor or elder?
That choosing to be an elder is voluntary, but the marriage attached to it is not?
That if someone has to forego a pastorate or eldership because of the marriage rule, that marriage is not voluntary?
On each of these statements, I am exactly quoting Iscool, switching the terms "celibate" and "married," and he himself concludes, "Matter of fact, if it's a rule, it's not voluntary."
Q.E.D. Are either of you, Iscool or metmom, ready to defend a forced marriage requirement?
I'm interested in seeing that scripture...
Scripture isn’t the only legitimate basis for something?
Says quite a lot about the Catholic mindset.
What’s Calvinism have to do with it anyway?
No...They don't care what God says...It's whatever their pope of the moment says...
Absolutely it is rationalization. Scripture does not demand celibacy for ministers. And since it is tied to the priesthood, there is no choice for those men who want to become priests unless they are willing to circumvent the policy and become Episcopalian priests first and then convert to Catholicism and viola, married priest.
Why allow for some men what the Church denies to others?
Why should I defend the forced marriage requirement of a church when Scripture doesn’t demand it? And there is a difference between the different offices. Elder and deacon are offices within the body, which are different than preachers and evangelists.
Exactly...When their tradition contradicts or collides with God's words in the scriptures, they always ignore God and go with their man made tradition...
Show us the chapter and verse.....
They just make it up as they go along and it's supposed to trump scripture...
For worship and personal service...They however forbid clergy be single, unmarried, childless servants...
God forbids clergy be single, unmarried and childless? Is that in Scripture?
You don’t think it becomes well known in all orders of the priesthood, who is queer & who is not? And that some of these queers priests are promoted to higher positions of authority, despite common insider knowledge of their perverted inclinations?
You're being goofy now...I'm not interested in man's rules...God says you hafta be married with a family...If God wants you to oversee one of his flocks, he'll provide what ever is necessary and you will like it...
It's like saying, "What if a woman has a calling to be a priest? Why should you force her to have sex-reassignment surgery and then get ordained, voila, woman priest?"
The bottom line still stands: celibacy is a choice. Marriage is a choice. And anyone can serve God: priest, layperson, woman, man. There are different ways.
But expecting the rule to be changed just for you, is light-minded or vocationally solipsistic, or both.
I personally am dismayed that for the most part, other Christian churches have no recognition of, and make no provision for, celibate vocations. The majority will never be called to this, but as both Jesus and Paul say: some are.
What would your church do, if somebody was called to celibacy, and to be a bishop?
I think I know iscool's answer: "We don't have bishops. We have nothing above pastor and elder." But what about your church, metmom? (Serious question, and no snark: I'm curious.)
So show us some Catholic church documents where it is stated that the apostles/disciples left their wives and kids behind...
Yep...Actually God forbids those who have never been married and never had children...How could Christians not know that???
You're quite right. It actually does. It says that the Catholic mind will never accept the protestant novelty of the Deposit of Faith being cleaved in half with Sacred Tradition separated from Sacred Scripture.
Well, first of all, you're beginning with an illogical premise and proceeding perfectly logically to an illogical conclusion, which is a dangerous thing to do. ~ Donald Rumsfeld
Which is why whenever you begin a reply with, "[S]how us..." it's rejected on its face. I will never accept the premise that I need to prove anything sola scripturally . Sometimes for the sake of argument I'll do it, just for the heck of it, but never forget the protestant premise is always rejected.
Protestantism is like an artifically constructed maze with an "enter here" sign. Catholicism is the bulldozer that razes said maze to the ground.
Besides, even if I were to demonstrate to you that a doctrine of the Catholic faith was scripturally sound (to your satisfaction, obviously) what are you prepared to do about it?
What’s Calvinism have to do with it anyway?
Well, assuming that a calling to the priesthood involves free will (or the lack thereof), which is a moral choice and therefore, by calvinistic standards, predestined by God and void of human free choice then I suppose all vocations to the priesthood should, by calvanistic standards, be accepted as predestined, regardless of any external factors. So if a man says he has a calling to the priesthood and to the married life he should be free to enter the priesthood unencumbered. Same for the practicing homosexual.
I don't know what that means. Jesus plainly commends celibacy for "all who can accept it."
"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."According to St. Paul:
I would that all men were even as myself; but every one hath his proper gift from God .... But I say to the unmarried and to the widows, it is good for them if they so continue, even as I.Paul was a bishop. Jesus is the eternal High Priest. The pope holds the office of the prime minister of the eternal House of David ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7, i.e., the Church), with the power to "bind and loose," given by Jesus himself. It is fitting for the Church to make celibacy a priestly discipline.
They however forbid clergy be single, unmarried, childless servants...
"The husband of one wife" means that a priest cannot be twice married. The statement does not mean that the early Church required marriage.
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