Posted on 07/13/2014 6:35:41 AM PDT by marshmallow
The elders/overseers/pastors/bishops of my church are married...
Christ and Paul commend celibacy, and recommend it over marriage for those who can accept it. Christ’s Church commends it, and mandates it for priests in the Roman Rite. Jesus also commands us to “listen to the church,” lest we be “treated as pagans or tax collectors.”
Catholics take Jesus’ command seriously and obey His Church. How is this contrary to Scripture?
Yet your position represents purely worldly wisdom. You oppose priestly celibacy, knowing that Christ recommends it over marriage. On what basis?
Where in the Bible does it say that all doctrine is contained in the Bible? It doesn’t. That’s a tradition of men. Yet you adhere to this man-made tradition, and typically ignore Christ’s command to “listen to the Church,” the “pillar and foundation of truth,” as recorded in the Bible.
That verse is constantly being taken out of context to justify the absolute authority Catholicism claims over not only it's members, but everyone else on the planet as well.
That verse is not blanket authority to any one church or denomination to give them license to make up rules and then demand that everyone fall in line under the threats of damnation and the anathemas like those found in the canon from the Council of Trent.
Where would Catholicism be without cherry picking Scripture?
In context....
Matthew 18:15-20 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
IOW, relate to him as you would someone who is unsaved. Don't consider him a brother.
That doesn't mean damn them by pronouncing anathemas against them and retaining their sins.
It doesn't mean ostracizing him. We are in the world and to associate with those of the world to win them to Christ. We are to appeal to them to be reconciled to God, whatever it means for them.
Church isn't a country club and too many church people need to lose the us vs them mentality and looking down their noses at the *outsiders*.
Show me the Scripture where Jesus recommends celibacy over marriage. I've asked before and not yet gotten an answer.
What book, chapter, and verse?
Oh, you KNOW that, eh?
How? You don't know me. Or are you presuming to read my mind?
And what church? Yours? Mine? Someone else's?
Or are you just objecting because I don't submit to Catholicism? Why would I listen to a church that I don't attend?
Or is that working on the assumption that the Catholic church thinks that it has some kind of authority over me for some reason?
What book, chapter, and verse?
Christ never married. Since we should imitate Christ, this is sufficient proof in itself.
Christ also commends celibacy, and promises a heavenly reward for those who follow this path.
"For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. (Mat 19:12)"Jesus also tells us that,"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or wife, or brethren, or parents, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, who shall not receive manifold more in this time, and in the world to come eternal life." (Luke 18:29-30)
"At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven." (Mat. 22:30)Finally, Paul recommends celibacy over marriage. Did Paul come up with this idea on his own?
"Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage. . . those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. . . . The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband" (1 Cor. 7:27-34)The theological basis for priestly celibacy --Vatican.va
Your statement illustrates the problem with the private interpretation of Scripture.
St. Paul commends celibacy over marriage. Why would he demand that all priests be married?
Does that make sense to you?
In fact, Paul doesn't demand that priests be married, since he was celibate --and a bishop.
We know that Paul was a bishop because he speaks of laying hands on Timothy, which is the role of a bishop.
2 Tim 1: 6 For which cause I admonish thee, that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee, by the imposition of my handsIn 1 Timothy 3:1-7 then, Paul is simply speaking of married candidates for the priesthood. Married men seeking to become priests must be the husband of one wife, in other words, not twice married.1 Tim 4:14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood
This prohibition is part of Church law today in Catholic Rites where priests are allowed to marry, AFAIK, even if the first wife died.
Surely they wouldn't lie about what Jesus says, would they???
That's not what Paul said...Surely you can read, can't you???
Your statement illustrates the problem with the private interpretation of Scripture.
You are the one inserting private interpretation...
St. Paul commends celibacy over marriage. Why would he demand that all priests be married?
Does that make sense to you?
Who cares whether you think it makes sense or not...And of course it makes sense...God never gave you the authority to judge what he says...
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
That's why Paul demands clergy be married with kids, AND
1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
How do you guys pervert the words of God and keep a clean conscience???
We know that Paul was a bishop because he speaks of laying hands on Timothy, which is the role of a bishop.
That's just goofy...Paul did the same things nuns do...Was Paul a nun as well???
This prohibition is part of Church law today in Catholic Rites where priests are allowed to marry, AFAIK, even if the first wife died.
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
That's your religion right there...Spelled right out in the scriptures...
And you know what God says about your religion that forbids it's clergy from taking a wife???
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;,
You are teaching the doctrines of devils...
Christ was expected to be celibate as an unmarried male. He is the bridegroom to the Bride of Christ, the wedding ceremony which is yet to be held in heaven. He called himself the bridegroom while still here on earth, indicating that He is betrothed.
Joseph was betrothed to Mary although they had not yet consummated the marriage and Joseph contemplated DIVORCING her, indicated that they considered that marriage.
Christ also commends celibacy, and promises a heavenly reward for those who follow this path.
That in no way is a command. It's an observation.
There's a big difference between, *some have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven*, to *make yourselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven*.
Finally, Paul recommends celibacy over marriage. Did Paul come up with this idea on his own?
Paul also mandates that those who seek office in the church MUST BE the husband of one wife. Did he think that up on his own?
1 Timothy 3:1-13 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
He COMMENDS it for believers in general but does not command it. However, he commands it for elders, as posted in the Scripture above.
If the Church feels so strongly that priests be celibate, then why weren't they for about the first half of church history?
That got changed once they realized that they were losing property to the priests families.
THEN they changed the policy and went fishing for reasons from Scripture to support it.
I guess there’s something hard to understand about the words *must be* that escapes some people.
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