Posted on 07/03/2014 4:10:21 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
ealgeone:
So I assume, based on the post, that you believe that you have been predestined by God to go to heaven absolutely.
Well lets look at a couple of areas. I think some things are pretty clear, Murder, mocking God, etc are pretty serious. I think those are clear cut.
But what about all these “Self professed Christians” [Catholics, Orthodox, Protestant alike] who have been conformed to the world on the abortion issue. They are putting their souls in danger. So if one is committed to abortion agenda, they are really on the wrong way, one hopes that before they die, they will repent of their ways, so I am not condemning anyone to Hell [that is not my role], but they seem to have departed from Christ, he did not depart from them. So how would they hypothetical person get back into Communion with Christ, well, in Catholic Theology a sincere examination of conscience and confession of ones sins would be the “normative means” since in the Sacrament, God fully provides the means of Grace to restore the sinner back into communion with him.
From a protestant perspective, I can only speculate, but I would hypothesize that someone who fell away would make a sincere act of repentance via some prayer. Catholics would call this a sincere Act of Contrition and would be what one would do if they did not have access to having a Priest hear their confession. This would be
Is there ever a point where the bishop ever lays his hands or removes his hands from the person and says you are unsealed by the Holy Spirit?
Would this not contradict Ephesians 1:13-14?
The Church Fathers used this term to describe the indelible mark put on the person in Baptism. As for the guarantee, you are correct that it draws on the image of pledge or down payment [Gensis 38-17-18].
I don't see the Genesis comparison as being the same with Ephesians. I understand the attempt to link the two, but I don't agree they are the same.
In the Catholic Tradition and theology, this points to Baptism which is the first installment [to use a similar term and language consistent with pledge or down payment] of the Fullness of God’s life and blessing we hope to possess in heaven.
Seal is used again by Paul in 2 Corinthians 1:22.
However in this context it is not associated with baptism. Is this what you were saying?
So being incorporated into God’s family via Baptism, we have the first fruits of the Spirit [Romans 8:23]. So receiving the Holy Spirit is the first installment or payment but the full inheritance it not till we are in heaven,
I'm cutting your sentence here, because I agree with what you're saying with the Holy Spirit being the installment and that our full inheritance is not until we get to Heaven.
and it is still possible for individuals to fall away.
This part I disagree with based on the text in Ephesians 1 and back to the sheep statement.
Again, presuming God must save me is against the virtue of Hope, as is outright despair, for the record.,/I>
Not sure what you're meaning here with this.
Hey, good discussion. All questions and rebuttals are offered in a manner and spirit of genuine attempt to have a discussion. I hope no harsh tone or intent is read into any of the comments. None is intended. Off to bed now.
I don't know about the predestination angle, but yes, I believe based on the Word of God I will absolutely go to Heaven when I die. If that assurance wasn't there, I couldn't sleep at night.
are these the mortal sins? getting confused on the postings and the questions!
the mortal sins are the ones that cause a loss of one's salvation? am I understanding that correctly?
But what about all these “Self professed Christians” [Catholics, Orthodox, Protestant alike] who have been conformed to the world on the abortion issue. They are putting their souls in danger. So if one is committed to abortion agenda, they are really on the wrong way, one hopes that before they die, they will repent of their ways, so I am not condemning anyone to Hell [that is not my role], but they seem to have departed from Christ, he did not depart from them.
could the question be asked, were they really saved to begin with if one is ok with the abortion issue?...which, btw I am staunchly opposed to.
So how would they hypothetical person get back into Communion with Christ, well, in Catholic Theology a sincere examination of conscience and confession of ones sins would be the “normative means” since in the Sacrament, God fully provides the means of Grace to restore the sinner back into communion with him.
From a protestant perspective, I can only speculate, but I would hypothesize that someone who fell away would make a sincere act of repentance via some prayer.
I think that would be a fair way to evaluate it. I always think of 1 John 1:8-9 in these situations.
Catholics would call this a sincere Act of Contrition and would be what one would do if they did not have access to having a Priest hear their confession.
From the other side of the hill, I would ask why not go straight to Christ? based on 1 John 1:8-9 above.
Ok...just saw these. I can sleep late! Well lets look at a couple of areas. I think some things are pretty clear, Murder, mocking God, etc are pretty serious. I think those are clear cut.
are these the mortal sins? getting confused on the postings and the questions! the mortal sins are the ones that cause a loss of one’s salvation? am I understanding that correctly?
1) Mortal sins break ones communion with God. THus, to die in a state of mortal sin [i.e. un-repentant of it] is what does it. Of course, notice died in a state of mortal sin, one can return to God’s communion by repenting and asking humbly asking for forgiveness. I just want to be clear on that one. Mortal sins are not the unpardonable sin Christ is talking about in Matthew 12:31-32 and Mark 3:29.
Regarding the self professed Christians, etc......”could the question be asked, were they really saved to begin with if one is ok with the abortion issue?...which, btw I am staunchly opposed to.”
2) I think your answer is where Catholic Terminology and I think those Evangelical terminology [those you hold to OSAS] differ. For me to say that person was never really saved is something I can’t say, because in Catholic Theology, the Grace of Baptism left an indelible mark on the soul and Confirmation sealed them with the Holy Spirit. God did not turn from them they from God, so whether they were “truly saved” is not the way Catholic theology looks at it. They by virtue of Baptism are God’s adopted sons and daughters but they have thrown away the “first installment of their inheritance”. However, one can hope that somehow by God’s Grace, they return, i.e. like the Prodigal son who we can see from the Gospel was once with his Father and worked, then took his inheritance and lost it, but was found again, he was lost but was found.
From a protestant perspective, I can only speculate, but I would hypothesize that someone who fell away would make a sincere act of repentance via some prayer.
“I think that would be a fair way to evaluate it. I always think of 1 John 1:8-9 in these situations.”
3) Well Ok then, I was able to fairly represent the Protestant perspective. Thanks!
“From the other side of the hill, I would ask why not go straight to Christ? based on 1 John 1:8-9 above.”
4)Ok, here is where Catholic Theology is going to differ. Going to Confession in the Church and stating ones sins before the ordained Priest is going to Christ. The Priest is only making present Christ thru the Sacrament and Sacraments can only be celebrated in the Church, which Christ is the Head of and it is his Body. The Sacraments fully provide God’s Grace “objectively” and thus when one humbly is willing to state ones sins to the Church [which the Priest hears] he is confessing his Sins to Christ and it is Christ who forgives, the Priest only verbalizes that forgiveness so that we as human beings experience forgiveness the same way say the woman at the Well in JOhn’s Gospel experienced it, with Christ saying your sins are forgiven, go sin no more, etc.
Just remember, you were wrong about “graven images” (the Jews had them in the Temple); you were wrong about confession; you were wrong on tradition; you apparently can’t use a search engine; you’re wrong about Mary. You’re simply wrong.
There’s that prideful “we did it” blasphemy again. Why do Catholics give all the credit to man while seeming loath to give God credit? From crediting man with miracles thus assigning the title “saint” to crediting an organization of men with what God said He would do and that’s preserve His word for all generations. The prideful, carnal apostasy of Catholics is stunning.
It’s for the lurkers who are truly searching for truth that I post in opposition to the Catholic errors.
Errors started with heresies and persisted with Martin Luther and onward into now 33,000 different churches and point of view.
Christ founded an apostolic Church on the apostles. Therein lies the truth.
And then the Catholic Church totally corrupted most every aspect of what Christ instituted and added paganism. The rest of the story.
It was obviously all the same to her.Mother Teresa was criticized for what she said; however, knowing more of her body of work, it doesn't surprise me that she said it. Much like those Christians on religion forums (who waste so much time discouraging those of other faiths), if she had taken the time to do the same, she would never have had the time to accomplish her great works for the poorest of the poor.
I really don’ much care what she believed. It’s the overall beliefs of the Catholic Church and it’s attempts to draw people into her that’s the problem. The attitude of not only church leaders but especially the pope in regards to “cooperating” with all religions and especially condoning praying together is totally contrary to scripture. It is also the precursor to a one world religion which is clearly prophesied for the last days. The Catholic Church has positioned itself to lead in that endeavor. Mother Theresa was just a part of that trend.
I do not have the time nor inclination to engage with you any longer as you've proven you cannot have a grown up conversation. Suggest you learn some internet etiquette and some logic.
Have a good one.
Ground control to CynicalBear: Jesus Christ started the Catholic Church. He started only one Church, the Catholic Church. He didn’t start 35,000 churches, all with differing views. He started one, The Catholic Church.
So says the Catholic Church. There are many people who have been duped into believing that for sure. Unfortunately it’s simply a lie. There is no such concept within the teachings of the apostles. Catholics can’t show where most of what the Catholic Church teaches and practices comes from the apostles. We can show where much of it comes from the pagans and God condemned taking from the pagans to serve Him. So this meme “Jesus Christ started the Catholic Church” may be believed by those who are blind to God’s truth but not to truly born again Christians.
Christ didn’t start a “church”. What was started is a body of believers who while still on this earth meet in what the New Testament called an “assembly” which at that time meant those called out. The term “church” is a corruption perpetuated by the Catholic Church just as they have corrupted most all of what scripture teaches.
Not worth responding to.
Well, I’ll try to make it a little less complicated for you. Please show where the apostles taught the assumption of Mary.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.