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How Hitler and Judas could end up in heaven
The Week ^ | 06/04/2014 | Damon Linker

Posted on 06/04/2014 6:52:46 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

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To: paladinan

So... why is it so scandalously wrong for God to, in your view..., “torture those humans who disagree, for all eternity”, but you somehow think it’s NOT scandalously wrong for God to... “torture those ANGELS who disagree, for all eternity”?


That’s not what I said or believe. I have no opinion of how he treats his angels other than I’m sure that he does the right thing. They are not humans. I don’t know what they know or understand about Him. Being a man, I know the heart of man, but I am not an angel.

I was reading Romans this morning and I found something amazing that applies to this thread. Specifically, Paul sincerely uses reason with the readers. He attempts to explain how what God does actually makes sense. This is the bible way, too. No, we can’t know everything, obviously, but what we do know actually makes some sense from a human position. He reasons with us from a human perspective, though it is made clear to us that His ways are above our ways.

My reason for bringing this up is that not only are we allowed to, but we are excellently served by appealing to people AS people and the way people’s minds work. The bible does it, and we should do it.

And the turn or burn message, to a human mind, not only makes no sense but is abhorrently barbaric. It also does not fit with the personality of God as displayed from the first word of Genesis to the last word of Revelation. Those humans not in his favor are not tortured. They are killed and removed from the playing field.


241 posted on 06/05/2014 2:05:50 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: SeekAndFind

Sorry. Torture = torment

Regarding Revelation 20:10, I have to keep saying this: It’s Revelation. It is a book of allegory and thick symbolism. If it is supported by other scripture, great, but even then it must be taken in context of the verse, the book and the bible. When I can point out dozens of places that say the fate of the lost is death, destruction, perish, etc. But you have to keep going back to Revelation 20:10, don’t you see the issue here?

The point of revelation 20:10 is that they are gone. It is finished. They are not coming back.

And on a side note: If I throw a lead fishing weight and a diamond into a pan and turn up the heat, the diamond will do nothing, while the fishing weight will melt. As the diamond and lead weight respond differently to the burner on my stove, an Angel and a temporarily resurrected human may respond differently to a “lake of fire”.

And the lake of fire is to the second death what lampstands are to the seven churches.


242 posted on 06/05/2014 2:14:45 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf

RE: Sorry. Torture = torment

OK, if that’s how you understand it, let’s concede that it is for the meantime.

How does that help us eliminate it? It doesn’t simply because IT IS THE WORD USED...

RE: Regarding Revelation 20:10, I have to keep saying this: It’s Revelation. It is a book of allegory and thick symbolism. If it is supported by other scripture, great, but even then it must be taken in context of the verse, the book and the bible. When I can point out dozens of places that say the fate of the lost is death, destruction, perish, etc. But you have to keep going back to Revelation 20:10, don’t you see the issue here?

Sorry, you cannot simply take all the other verses of the Bible and then IGNORE what Revelation teaches. You have to read what the Bible teaches AS A WHOLE.

And even if we grant that Revelation is a book of symbolism, you simply cannot METAPHORIZE this verse out of existence to make it mean something the words don’t mean.

FOREVER cannot be symbolized to mean something else.

TORMENT cannot be symbolized to make it mean something else ( only the understanding of what the degree of what torment is can be fluid, but the word torment is still the common understanding of the word ).

RE: Your analogy of the fishing weight and the diamond under fire.

Unfortunately, Revelations 14 does not give us hope that a human soul is like a fishing rod. It looks like it is more like a DIAMOND.

It says, Those who worship the beast will be tormented and will have no rest, day and night.... and their torment is forever and ever.

Even if Revelations is a book of symbolism, it is hard to make the words — “no rest” a symbol. Unless you want to change the meaning of the words into something we don’t recognize at all.


243 posted on 06/05/2014 3:06:05 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: fabian

That fits with the belief that because God loves us, he would never force us to be where we don’t want to be. I want to be with him.


244 posted on 06/05/2014 3:51:55 PM PDT by defconw (LUTFA!)
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To: SeekAndFind

Sorry, you cannot simply take all the other verses of the Bible and then IGNORE what Revelation teaches. You have to read what the Bible teaches AS A WHOLE.


We are in agreement.

What I am saying is that we disagree on what it teaches. I’ll give an example of this. I believe that revelation 7 may discuss the rapture, while my pre-tribulation friend believes that the beginning of revelation 4 describes the rapture.

As I said to another friend discussing an area in which he and I disagreeed when he held up his bible and said “I believe what my bible says!” And I said to him, “What you believe is your interpretation of what the bible says.”

Thing is, you give me a “torment” and I raise you a “death”. To support your “torment” you must redefine what “death” really means in the afterlife (I think we agree it’s not the first death since we all succumb to that one). Now, that raises the interesting issue of determining what all these words really mean in the afterlife - something the bible is most definitely not fully forthcoming about (remember the sealing of the words of the seven thunders?). For me, it ultimately means applying the whole of scripture and what it tells me of the personality of God. And God describes Himself to us in human terms all over the bible. And it is clear that he meats us at our human reasoning level.

And when I attack the question from that perspective, The answer regarding “annihilation vs eternal conscious suffering” is an easy choice.


245 posted on 06/05/2014 4:07:24 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: SeekAndFind

Even if Revelations is a book of symbolism, it is hard to make the words — “no rest” a symbol. Unless you want to change the meaning of the words into something we don’t recognize at all.


No rest until they are consumed.

I confess that if the only description of the fate of the lost was Revelation 20:10, you and I would be in complete agreement - and I would not be a Christian. At least, if I was it would be solely out of fear.

And to be frank, I’ve noticed something about human nature in my 60 years: The more nonsensical a threatened outcome seems to a person, the less seriously they take it. Sometimes it is to their great discomfort - e.g. getting pulled over with a .08 alcohol level on a complete fluke and finding that you lose your job, your wife and your future.

But what I’ve found is that the more “reasonable” the punishment, the more likely a person is to take it seriously. And the thought of people going to eternal, unconscionable torment for the simple decision to not accept a God you may never even have been told about is ludicrous on the face of it to rational human thinking. It means you are attempting to convince someone of an irrational belief - which is difficult.

However, the God of Ecclesiastes that calls man’s fate basically equal to an animal if his only state is that of the natural man, followed by permanent annihilation, it sounds much more logical. More of a “punishment fits the crime” sort of thing. And if those that actively forsake God or fight with His elect end up thrown into a lake of fire and burned to death, never to come back, that sounds reasonable too. Thing is, as a Christian, I have no vindictive motives for even those I’ve seen on the internet that actively spew amazing hate for Christiandom. My wish for them is that they repent. But if they don’t, my wish is that they simply go away, never to return.

What the english bible’s call “eternal punishment” I call “eternal banishment”. But that’s not really the right word. But I have a hard time with “punishment” because I see the purpose of punishment as something finite that happens because of violating rules, followed by a return to a normal condition, hopefully after “learning their lesson”. But for those that die without Christ, there is no going back. The concept of punishment is kinda pointless. They simply need to go away. And once they do, there is no life outside the presence of God.


246 posted on 06/05/2014 4:19:48 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf

RE: No rest until they are consumed.

Let’s get back to the verse again...

” torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, “

There is not indication in that verse in Revelations 14 that says UNTIL such and such a time.

It says forever and ever.

RE: And to be frank, I’ve noticed something about human nature in my 60 years: The more nonsensical a threatened outcome seems to a person, the less seriously they take it.

Be careful that you don’t call something nonsensical simply because it doesn’t comport to your preconceived notion of how God views justice.

I am in sympathy to your point of view, but the verses I read IN TOTO do not support the view that the punishment is of limited duration. If any, the tenor of the words push towards the opposite ( as in Revelations 14 and Matthew 25 ).

Also, we do a non-believer any favors by presenting to him a teaching that does not do justice to what God’s word teaches. A doctor’s job is to tell his patient the truth and to tell him the remedy REGARDLESS of whether the patient likes the truth or not.

RE: What the english bible’s call “eternal punishment” I call “eternal banishment”.

Now, if you want to discuss the NATURE of the punishment, we can discuss it in a separate thread. But to say that the words “forever and ever” and torment do not mean what they mean is pushing it. I want to be convinced, but the Bible does not permit me to.


247 posted on 06/05/2014 5:17:25 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: cuban leaf
Wait a minute, here! Your whole argument (and position, if I understand even half of it) is that God couldn't possibly be so cruel as to sentence (and again, that's a flawed way to put things) humans to an eternity of burning in hell... which leads you to the hypothesis that hell is temporary, and the damned will eventually be erased from existence altogether--which you somehow equate with "death".

Now... given this version of God, how does that square with "sentencing" angels to an eternity of burning in hell? Are angels less worthy of God's love or mercy? Is God's love and mercy incomplete, partial, or selective?

Read your own quote again:

"And the turn or burn message, to a human mind, not only makes no sense but is abhorrently barbaric. It also does not fit with the personality of God as displayed from the first word of Genesis to the last word of Revelation. Those humans not in his favor are not tortured. They are killed and removed from the playing field."

And yet, you turn right around, without blinking an eye, acknowledge the fact (which is plainly in Scripture--Revelation 20:10 is [forgive the pun] excruciatingly clear, which is why we cite it again and again; since you have a penchant for trying to interpret away what disagrees with your thesis, we're forced to keep pointing you back to a verse which explicitly contradicts your position). You acknowledge it, and then you shrug and say, "I have no opinion of how he treats his angels other than I’m sure that he does the right thing." That's generous, to be sure... but how is that substantially different from anyone else looking at human souls in eternal torment (in hell) and saying "I have no opinion of how he treats his human creatures other than I’m sure that he does the right thing"?

They are not humans. I don’t know what they know or understand about Him. Being a man, I know the heart of man, but I am not an angel.

What possible difference does that make to this case? We're examining (what you take to be) the nature of GOD, not the nature of angels! You don't need to know the mind or heart of an angel to know that he's capable of being tormented for all eternity! The question should be, "Why are you giving God a free pass on (what you see as) the eternal torture of angels, while you absolutely refuse to entertain the possibility that God could allow humans to suffer eternally in that way?" If God were (and again, I think this is a mistaken way to view the situation) capable of torturing angels forever, wouldn't that say something about His Heart? Would you trust a father who just finished torturing your older sister to death, on the basis that there's no record of him ever torturing males--and since no male can fully know the mind and heart of a female (I dare you to refute that! :) ), so your father must've had his good reasons... reasons which couldn't possibly transfer to you, since you're male?

Forgive me, FRiend... but this reply of yours reads very much like a fingers-in-ears, "Lalalalalala-I'mnotlisteningI'mnotlistening-lalalalalaGodistoomercifultoalloweternalhellforhumans!" You seem (ironically, given your paean about logic/reason in your last post) to be rejecting the "God allows eternal hell" thesis purely because you find it emotionally abhorrent! That's not logical, my FRiend.
248 posted on 06/05/2014 6:45:50 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: SeekAndFind

” torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, “


Yes. You are trying too hard to parse words, translated into english. Nothing wrong with that unless you base important doctrine on it. In which case, there better be plenty of other scriptures to back it up.

I was reading Romans again this morning and noticed how much Paul uses figures of speech. We are told very clearly not to fear and that fear is the opposite of faith, yet paul admonishes us to be afraid. That is contradictory if you parse words as a computer would. But if you understand the language, you understand the message.

This is why it is so difficult for computers to translate languages, though they are getting better at it all the time.

RE: I am in sympathy to your point of view, but the verses I read IN TOTO do not support the view that the punishment is of limited duration.

I actually feel the same way, but the reverse. I think the pain of punishment is of VERY short duration, as the duration of the pain of being eaten by a great white shark is of limited duration. But the “punishment” itself is eternal: You are dead and you are not coming back.


249 posted on 06/06/2014 4:44:34 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: paladinan

which leads you to the hypothesis that hell is temporary...


Hell is a human concept of something we don’t understand, and the bible clearly says it’s temporary because it is thrown into the lake of fire, which is also a concept. What it really is is the second death. Yeah, hell “dies” at that point.


250 posted on 06/06/2014 4:46:08 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: paladinan

...Now... given this version of God, how does that square with “sentencing” angels to an eternity of burning in hell? Are angels less worthy of God’s love or mercy? Is God’s love and mercy incomplete, partial, or selective?...


He deals with man differently than he deals with dogs. He deals with angels differently than he deals with man. I am not an angel so I can’t speak for their perspective. I do know that the bible tells me they know things I don’t, among other differences.

i.e. They may be held accountable in ways we are not, just as se are held accountable in ways a dog is not.


251 posted on 06/06/2014 5:37:48 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf

RE: Yes. You are trying too hard to parse words,

Understanding the word-— torment to be something it isn’t is parsing words? Really ask yourself if the above statement does not describe what you are trying to do.

RE: translated into english.

Torment IS the English translation.

RE: Nothing wrong with that unless you base important doctrine on it.

I think it goes both ways. You are trying to create the doctrine of annihilation and trying to change the common and straightforward understanding of words — torment and forever and ever, and no rest.

RE: In which case, there better be plenty of other scriptures to back it up.

Sure. I mentioned Matthew 25, revelations 14 AND Revelations 20. I don’t see how those 3 passages contradict each other. In fact, a straightforward reading of all these passages do not support extinction at all.

RE: I was reading Romans again this morning and noticed how much Paul uses figures of speech

Which particular passage is that? Please share it with me and we’ll see exactly how we can understand it.

RE: I think the pain of punishment is of VERY short duration, as the duration of the pain of being eaten by a great white shark is of limited duration. But the “punishment” itself is eternal: You are dead and you are not coming back.

Then you have to contend with the following words from the Apostle John:

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall BE TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends FOREVER AND EVER; and they have NO REST DAY or NIGHT”


252 posted on 06/06/2014 6:47:26 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: cuban leaf; paladinan

RE: Hell is a human concept of something we don’t understand, and the bible clearly says it’s temporary because it is thrown into the lake of fire, which is also a concept.

“Hades” is the Greek word for the realm of the dead. In the Greek Septuagint, it replaces the Hebrew word “Sheol”.

There’s not a lot of description of Hades within the main canon - chiefly the teaching of Jesus in Luke 16 - but generally it is considered the holding place for the souls of the dead until the final judgement.

It is sometimes thought to be divided into “compartments” of sorts: e.g. a place of torment and a place of comfort (the bosom of Abraham). This is somewhat apparent in Luke 16 and 2 Peter 2:4 mentions the angels bound in Tartarus: the Greek name for the place of torment.

You’ll see in Revelation that Hades is always accompanied by Death (esp. see Revelation 6:8 where they are together personified). Death is thought to claim the material portion of a person and Hades the immaterial portion.

Whatever it is, the Lake of Fire supercedes Hades. Once Hades gives up its dead for the final judgement it is no longer needed and is sent to destruction along with those whose names were not in the book of life. Keep in mind that earlier Death and Hades were personified, so it makes sense in the apocolyptic setting that they could be sent to the same “place” as other persons.


253 posted on 06/06/2014 6:52:46 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: cuban leaf
Hell is a human concept of something we don’t understand, and the bible clearly says it’s temporary because it is thrown into the lake of fire, which is also a concept. What it really is is the second death. Yeah, hell “dies” at that point.

Well... fine, call it what you like: hell, tartarus, gehenna, "the place/state of eternal burning", eternal damnation, endless torment, etc.; the language in which we speak it (cf. the specific word "hell") isn't ultimately the point. As SeekAndFind already said: it doesn't help your case if "eternal hell" is replaced by "eternal lake of fire"; wouldn't the souls/beings who are condemned to it find it an equal torment?

Also: with all due respect, you really do need to decide how you're going to handle Scripture; either you're willing to accept it for what it (in the original language, in the original idiom) actually SAYS, or you take it as metaphor and symbol which could mean almost anything. In other words: you can't honestly say (in one breath), "I follow the Bible", and then turn around to say, "My feelings led me to the conclusion that 'torment forever and ever' can't possibly mean what it says!" If feelings are the "ruler" by which you measure God's Word, then that's simply asking for trouble; it leads almost inevitably to walking away from Jesus Himself! (cf. "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" -John 6:60)

He deals with man differently than he deals with dogs.

That doesn't help your case at all! For myself, I fundamentally distrust anyone who's intentionally cruel to animals (e.g. setting kittens on fire, putting turtles in the road to watch them get crushed, etc.); not only is it sickening, but I firmly believe that such a person cannot be trusted to treat anything--human, or otherwise--properly and kindly. Someone with the capacity to be cruel to [x] shows a flaw in character which is irreconcilable with absolute trust in him.

He deals with angels differently than he deals with man.

Just as your hypothetical father (see comment #248) deals differently with women than he deals with men. That makes you feel better? FRiend, I don't think you're thinking this through clearly, at all!

I am not an angel so I can’t speak for their perspective.

...and I'm not a kitten, so I can't speak from their perspective; but I'm still morally certain that they feel agonizing pain when burned alive... and I'm morally certain that I'd regard the human culprit as a monster. The fact that this man isn't "torching" HUMANS wouldn't make me smile and say, "Ah, well... that's all right, then!"

Let me make a key qualifier, here: I think you're completely misunderstanding both the nature of God and the nature of Hell/Gehenna/Final Place of Torment. God doesn't "send" us there; He (sadly) ALLOWS us to FLING OURSELVES into it, due to His irrevocable gift of free will (our birthright, in which we were made in His Image and Likeness). As C.S. Lewis said: "Hell's door is locked from the inside." No one in Hell would prefer to be in Heaven, since the Presence of the loving God Whom they've rejected is the greatest torment for them; Hell is eternal agony, but Heaven would be immeasurably worse for them.
254 posted on 06/06/2014 7:26:01 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Understanding the word-— torment to be something it isn’t is parsing words? Really ask yourself if the above statement does not describe what you are trying to do.


The word “torment” is an english word. The NT was not written in English. And no, I’m not doing the same thing. Technically, there is scripture to support both points of view (obviously). The foundation from which I am reaching my conclusion is the overall personality of God as described in His word as well as my personal relationship with Him. I come from these bullet points.

1. God created us in His image. He gave us a sense of justice, though it is only a limited version of His.
2. The eternal torment paradigm grossly violates our sense of justice. The human’s perception of justice involves the concept of the punishment fitting the crime. We don’t punish animals for things they cannot even understand are wrong. However, we sometimes kill them for it (if they are a danger). Likewise, we don’t throw a person in prison for 20 years for driving without license tabs. Because we can’t even understand the concept of eternal torment, we can’t wrap our minds around the concept of a person simply refusing the message of the bible because they are a skeptic being sent to such torment. And that is one reason so many people think the Christian message is foolishness. It is also interesting that many of them are heavily invested in that being part of the Christian teaching.
3. The fate of the lost, over and over, is described using words like “death”, “destruction”, “perish”, and when the length of time of that condition is described, the main point is that the condition is quite final. Hence the “consuming flame”, “their worm does not die”, etc. It makes it perfectly clear that for them, there is no redemption. There is no coming back from this state. It is not a form of purgatory. It is the end.
3. In all of bibical history, the fate of those God has deemed evil or otherwise in need of judgement have all received the fate of being killed or otherwise eliminated. When Israel was instructed to wipe out entire nations, they were not instructed to torture. They were instructed to kill them all. No kind of torture is never even brought up.

And then there is the whole concept of punishment. What is it? What’s its purpose? (I’m asking rhetorically)

When I view the whole package, though I always had a problem with the “turn or burn” message, I never really thought about it. When I did, and thought about its ramifications, I DID have a problem with it. When I studied it, I saw it for what it is - an apparent false teaching that crept into the church as a way some well meaning humans thought they could scare more people into Christiandom. At best.


255 posted on 06/06/2014 8:00:20 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: SeekAndFind

Thank you for going to that trouble clarifying it. I agree with everything in that post.


256 posted on 06/06/2014 8:01:37 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: paladinan

Well... fine, call it what you like: hell, tartarus, gehenna, “the place/state of eternal burning”, eternal damnation, endless torment, etc.; the language in which we speak it (cf. the specific word “hell”) isn’t ultimately the point. As SeekAndFind already said: it doesn’t help your case if “eternal hell” is replaced by “eternal lake of fire”; wouldn’t the souls/beings who are condemned to it find it an equal torment?


Thanks for bringing up gehenna. It’s how I see it, spiritually. A garbage dump that is always burning, and everything thrown into it is disposed of and consumed, never to return. The stuff you threw in last week is not still burning. It’s gone, though the fire remains.


257 posted on 06/06/2014 8:03:49 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf
RE: The word “torment” is an english word. The NT was not written in English. And no, I’m not doing the same thing. Technically, there is scripture to support both points of view (obviously). The foundation from which I am reaching my conclusion is the overall personality of God as described in His word as well as my personal relationship with Him. I come from these bullet points.

OK, let's use the Greek word instead. The Greek word is βασανισμου. How do you translate that into English? Every single translation I see uses the word torment.

BTW, I know how to read and speak two other languages -- Mandarin and Filipino.

The Filipino Bible translates the word from the Greek as : 'Paghihirap' or in English 'Suffering'.

The words forever and ever in Greek is translated in Filipino as 'magpakailan pa man'. There is no escaping it, the concept is still forever to the Filipino speaking people.

What about the Chinese? The Greek word: βασανισμου is translated as 苦難 in Chinese. Still denotes suffering, and they also translate the word 永永遠遠, which in English simply means forever and ever.

What about Spanish? ( I do read Spanish, not very fluently but I get by ).

Here is the translation of the verse:

y el humo del tormento de ellos suben para siempre jamás tendrá, y todo un culto reposo día ni noche a la bestia ya su imagen, y si el que reciba la marca de su nombre

 y el humo de estos anavasanismouvainei siempre jamás tendrá, y un buen

Do you see the word -- TORMENTO? Ask any Spanish speaking friend whatit means to them...

What about the words -- para siempre? (forever)

In what ever language that is translated from the Greek, the meaning of the word -- TORMENT and FOREVER is THE SAME. I invite you to print this particular post out and show it to your Spanish speaking, Chinese speaking or Filipino speaking friends and ask them how they understand it.

The eternal torment paradigm grossly violates our sense of justice.

Again, you do not know the NATURE of the torment. The Bible does hint about DEGREES of punishment. So, how do you know what KIND of Justice is being meted out when it has not been revealed fully to you?

. God created us in His image. He gave us a sense of justice, though it is only a limited version of His.

Well, the Bible tells us that God is SPIRIT. And because we are created in His image, only we, human beings HAVE spirit. I don't know if a spirit can be made extinct....

The fate of the lost, over and over, is described using words like “death”, “destruction”, “perish”, and when the length of time of that condition is described, the main point is that the condition is quite final. Hence the “consuming flame”, “their worm does not die”, etc. It makes it perfectly clear that for them, there is no redemption. There is no coming back from this state. It is not a form of purgatory. It is the end.

Let's talk about "death".

In the Old Testament, is death understood to be total extinction? I don't think so.

When David committed sin with Bathsheba and his son with her was deathly sick, he prayed to God to heal his son. God refused the request. His son died. What did David do? Did he freak out as if the death of his son made him extinct? NO. He dressed up and went to pray. He explained that His son will not come to him but "I will go to him."

In other words, Death is SEPARATION. Not total extinction.

In the New Testament, St. Paul describes those who have met their death as -- those who are asleep.

So, even in the New Testament, death is not extinction. It is SEPARATION from those who are alive.

Let's look at another use of the word "death" or "die". Let's go back to the very beginning --- Genesis. God said to Adam and eve: "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Did Adam and Eve DIE ON THE DAY they ate of the fruit? YES THEY DID, but not in the way you understand DEATH ( Adam lived to be over 900 years and had many more sons and daughters with Eve ).

So, what was the death ON THE DAY that Adam and Eve disobeyed God?

You know the answer to the question -- God BANISHED them from Eden -- SEPARATION from God's presence.

This fits perfectly with what the Apostle Paul was saying when He warned about the fate of unrepentant sinners in 1 Thessalonians 1:8-9 when it says of them that they will be punished by being "shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might".

So, I don't see the use of the word -- DEATH as extinction. If any, the examples I show mean SEPARATION.

So, cut the concept of torture from your vocabulary. The misery of hell looks like it will consist of cruel physical torture, but the agony of being cut off from the true source of happiness. God is the source of all good things and the unrepentant have chosen their own path.
258 posted on 06/06/2014 8:39:02 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: cuban leaf
Thanks for bringing up gehenna. It’s how I see it, spiritually. A garbage dump that is always burning, and everything thrown into it is disposed of and consumed, never to return. The stuff you threw in last week is not still burning. It’s gone, though the fire remains.

(??) You mean the Gehenna to which Jesus referred, when He said the following?

"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna (Gk: "ge'ennan"), where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:47-48)

Your analogy suffers in at least two ways:

1) It doesn't address the eternal suffering of the fallen angels (or what implications that would have about God, given your starting assumptions), at all. See Revelation 20:10 (again).

2) The worm does not die in Gehenna. In most burning garbage dumps, worms would die, yes? If your view is true, and "burning" means "burning up and dying and ceasing to exist", then why is there an apparent immortal worm in Mark 9:48?


259 posted on 06/06/2014 10:26:14 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan

It doesn’t address the eternal suffering of the fallen angels


You are right. They are outside the scope of what I’m talking about and their fate muddies the waters here. I’m talking about the fate of the lost who occuy the human tent.

Gehenna was a garbage dump, not a furnace. It had both worms and fire to consume. And in both cases it points out that the force that consumes does not die. Again, an analogy (for obviously Gehenna is not the literal subject of Jesus’ words) for the fate being final. They are gone. Permanently.


260 posted on 06/06/2014 10:32:32 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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