Posted on 06/04/2014 6:52:46 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
So... why is it so scandalously wrong for God to, in your view..., “torture those humans who disagree, for all eternity”, but you somehow think it’s NOT scandalously wrong for God to... “torture those ANGELS who disagree, for all eternity”?
I was reading Romans this morning and I found something amazing that applies to this thread. Specifically, Paul sincerely uses reason with the readers. He attempts to explain how what God does actually makes sense. This is the bible way, too. No, we can’t know everything, obviously, but what we do know actually makes some sense from a human position. He reasons with us from a human perspective, though it is made clear to us that His ways are above our ways.
My reason for bringing this up is that not only are we allowed to, but we are excellently served by appealing to people AS people and the way people’s minds work. The bible does it, and we should do it.
And the turn or burn message, to a human mind, not only makes no sense but is abhorrently barbaric. It also does not fit with the personality of God as displayed from the first word of Genesis to the last word of Revelation. Those humans not in his favor are not tortured. They are killed and removed from the playing field.
Sorry. Torture = torment
Regarding Revelation 20:10, I have to keep saying this: It’s Revelation. It is a book of allegory and thick symbolism. If it is supported by other scripture, great, but even then it must be taken in context of the verse, the book and the bible. When I can point out dozens of places that say the fate of the lost is death, destruction, perish, etc. But you have to keep going back to Revelation 20:10, don’t you see the issue here?
The point of revelation 20:10 is that they are gone. It is finished. They are not coming back.
And on a side note: If I throw a lead fishing weight and a diamond into a pan and turn up the heat, the diamond will do nothing, while the fishing weight will melt. As the diamond and lead weight respond differently to the burner on my stove, an Angel and a temporarily resurrected human may respond differently to a “lake of fire”.
And the lake of fire is to the second death what lampstands are to the seven churches.
RE: Sorry. Torture = torment
OK, if that’s how you understand it, let’s concede that it is for the meantime.
How does that help us eliminate it? It doesn’t simply because IT IS THE WORD USED...
RE: Regarding Revelation 20:10, I have to keep saying this: It’s Revelation. It is a book of allegory and thick symbolism. If it is supported by other scripture, great, but even then it must be taken in context of the verse, the book and the bible. When I can point out dozens of places that say the fate of the lost is death, destruction, perish, etc. But you have to keep going back to Revelation 20:10, don’t you see the issue here?
Sorry, you cannot simply take all the other verses of the Bible and then IGNORE what Revelation teaches. You have to read what the Bible teaches AS A WHOLE.
And even if we grant that Revelation is a book of symbolism, you simply cannot METAPHORIZE this verse out of existence to make it mean something the words don’t mean.
FOREVER cannot be symbolized to mean something else.
TORMENT cannot be symbolized to make it mean something else ( only the understanding of what the degree of what torment is can be fluid, but the word torment is still the common understanding of the word ).
RE: Your analogy of the fishing weight and the diamond under fire.
Unfortunately, Revelations 14 does not give us hope that a human soul is like a fishing rod. It looks like it is more like a DIAMOND.
It says, Those who worship the beast will be tormented and will have no rest, day and night.... and their torment is forever and ever.
Even if Revelations is a book of symbolism, it is hard to make the words — “no rest” a symbol. Unless you want to change the meaning of the words into something we don’t recognize at all.
That fits with the belief that because God loves us, he would never force us to be where we don’t want to be. I want to be with him.
Sorry, you cannot simply take all the other verses of the Bible and then IGNORE what Revelation teaches. You have to read what the Bible teaches AS A WHOLE.
What I am saying is that we disagree on what it teaches. I’ll give an example of this. I believe that revelation 7 may discuss the rapture, while my pre-tribulation friend believes that the beginning of revelation 4 describes the rapture.
As I said to another friend discussing an area in which he and I disagreeed when he held up his bible and said “I believe what my bible says!” And I said to him, “What you believe is your interpretation of what the bible says.”
Thing is, you give me a “torment” and I raise you a “death”. To support your “torment” you must redefine what “death” really means in the afterlife (I think we agree it’s not the first death since we all succumb to that one). Now, that raises the interesting issue of determining what all these words really mean in the afterlife - something the bible is most definitely not fully forthcoming about (remember the sealing of the words of the seven thunders?). For me, it ultimately means applying the whole of scripture and what it tells me of the personality of God. And God describes Himself to us in human terms all over the bible. And it is clear that he meats us at our human reasoning level.
And when I attack the question from that perspective, The answer regarding “annihilation vs eternal conscious suffering” is an easy choice.
Even if Revelations is a book of symbolism, it is hard to make the words — “no rest” a symbol. Unless you want to change the meaning of the words into something we don’t recognize at all.
I confess that if the only description of the fate of the lost was Revelation 20:10, you and I would be in complete agreement - and I would not be a Christian. At least, if I was it would be solely out of fear.
And to be frank, I’ve noticed something about human nature in my 60 years: The more nonsensical a threatened outcome seems to a person, the less seriously they take it. Sometimes it is to their great discomfort - e.g. getting pulled over with a .08 alcohol level on a complete fluke and finding that you lose your job, your wife and your future.
But what I’ve found is that the more “reasonable” the punishment, the more likely a person is to take it seriously. And the thought of people going to eternal, unconscionable torment for the simple decision to not accept a God you may never even have been told about is ludicrous on the face of it to rational human thinking. It means you are attempting to convince someone of an irrational belief - which is difficult.
However, the God of Ecclesiastes that calls man’s fate basically equal to an animal if his only state is that of the natural man, followed by permanent annihilation, it sounds much more logical. More of a “punishment fits the crime” sort of thing. And if those that actively forsake God or fight with His elect end up thrown into a lake of fire and burned to death, never to come back, that sounds reasonable too. Thing is, as a Christian, I have no vindictive motives for even those I’ve seen on the internet that actively spew amazing hate for Christiandom. My wish for them is that they repent. But if they don’t, my wish is that they simply go away, never to return.
What the english bible’s call “eternal punishment” I call “eternal banishment”. But that’s not really the right word. But I have a hard time with “punishment” because I see the purpose of punishment as something finite that happens because of violating rules, followed by a return to a normal condition, hopefully after “learning their lesson”. But for those that die without Christ, there is no going back. The concept of punishment is kinda pointless. They simply need to go away. And once they do, there is no life outside the presence of God.
RE: No rest until they are consumed.
Let’s get back to the verse again...
” torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, “
There is not indication in that verse in Revelations 14 that says UNTIL such and such a time.
It says forever and ever.
RE: And to be frank, I’ve noticed something about human nature in my 60 years: The more nonsensical a threatened outcome seems to a person, the less seriously they take it.
Be careful that you don’t call something nonsensical simply because it doesn’t comport to your preconceived notion of how God views justice.
I am in sympathy to your point of view, but the verses I read IN TOTO do not support the view that the punishment is of limited duration. If any, the tenor of the words push towards the opposite ( as in Revelations 14 and Matthew 25 ).
Also, we do a non-believer any favors by presenting to him a teaching that does not do justice to what God’s word teaches. A doctor’s job is to tell his patient the truth and to tell him the remedy REGARDLESS of whether the patient likes the truth or not.
RE: What the english bible’s call “eternal punishment” I call “eternal banishment”.
Now, if you want to discuss the NATURE of the punishment, we can discuss it in a separate thread. But to say that the words “forever and ever” and torment do not mean what they mean is pushing it. I want to be convinced, but the Bible does not permit me to.
” torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, “
I was reading Romans again this morning and noticed how much Paul uses figures of speech. We are told very clearly not to fear and that fear is the opposite of faith, yet paul admonishes us to be afraid. That is contradictory if you parse words as a computer would. But if you understand the language, you understand the message.
This is why it is so difficult for computers to translate languages, though they are getting better at it all the time.
RE: I am in sympathy to your point of view, but the verses I read IN TOTO do not support the view that the punishment is of limited duration.
I actually feel the same way, but the reverse. I think the pain of punishment is of VERY short duration, as the duration of the pain of being eaten by a great white shark is of limited duration. But the “punishment” itself is eternal: You are dead and you are not coming back.
which leads you to the hypothesis that hell is temporary...
...Now... given this version of God, how does that square with “sentencing” angels to an eternity of burning in hell? Are angels less worthy of God’s love or mercy? Is God’s love and mercy incomplete, partial, or selective?...
i.e. They may be held accountable in ways we are not, just as se are held accountable in ways a dog is not.
RE: Yes. You are trying too hard to parse words,
Understanding the word-— torment to be something it isn’t is parsing words? Really ask yourself if the above statement does not describe what you are trying to do.
RE: translated into english.
Torment IS the English translation.
RE: Nothing wrong with that unless you base important doctrine on it.
I think it goes both ways. You are trying to create the doctrine of annihilation and trying to change the common and straightforward understanding of words — torment and forever and ever, and no rest.
RE: In which case, there better be plenty of other scriptures to back it up.
Sure. I mentioned Matthew 25, revelations 14 AND Revelations 20. I don’t see how those 3 passages contradict each other. In fact, a straightforward reading of all these passages do not support extinction at all.
RE: I was reading Romans again this morning and noticed how much Paul uses figures of speech
Which particular passage is that? Please share it with me and we’ll see exactly how we can understand it.
RE: I think the pain of punishment is of VERY short duration, as the duration of the pain of being eaten by a great white shark is of limited duration. But the “punishment” itself is eternal: You are dead and you are not coming back.
Then you have to contend with the following words from the Apostle John:
“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall BE TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends FOREVER AND EVER; and they have NO REST DAY or NIGHT”
RE: Hell is a human concept of something we don’t understand, and the bible clearly says it’s temporary because it is thrown into the lake of fire, which is also a concept.
“Hades” is the Greek word for the realm of the dead. In the Greek Septuagint, it replaces the Hebrew word “Sheol”.
There’s not a lot of description of Hades within the main canon - chiefly the teaching of Jesus in Luke 16 - but generally it is considered the holding place for the souls of the dead until the final judgement.
It is sometimes thought to be divided into “compartments” of sorts: e.g. a place of torment and a place of comfort (the bosom of Abraham). This is somewhat apparent in Luke 16 and 2 Peter 2:4 mentions the angels bound in Tartarus: the Greek name for the place of torment.
You’ll see in Revelation that Hades is always accompanied by Death (esp. see Revelation 6:8 where they are together personified). Death is thought to claim the material portion of a person and Hades the immaterial portion.
Whatever it is, the Lake of Fire supercedes Hades. Once Hades gives up its dead for the final judgement it is no longer needed and is sent to destruction along with those whose names were not in the book of life. Keep in mind that earlier Death and Hades were personified, so it makes sense in the apocolyptic setting that they could be sent to the same “place” as other persons.
Understanding the word-— torment to be something it isn’t is parsing words? Really ask yourself if the above statement does not describe what you are trying to do.
1. God created us in His image. He gave us a sense of justice, though it is only a limited version of His.
2. The eternal torment paradigm grossly violates our sense of justice. The human’s perception of justice involves the concept of the punishment fitting the crime. We don’t punish animals for things they cannot even understand are wrong. However, we sometimes kill them for it (if they are a danger). Likewise, we don’t throw a person in prison for 20 years for driving without license tabs. Because we can’t even understand the concept of eternal torment, we can’t wrap our minds around the concept of a person simply refusing the message of the bible because they are a skeptic being sent to such torment. And that is one reason so many people think the Christian message is foolishness. It is also interesting that many of them are heavily invested in that being part of the Christian teaching.
3. The fate of the lost, over and over, is described using words like “death”, “destruction”, “perish”, and when the length of time of that condition is described, the main point is that the condition is quite final. Hence the “consuming flame”, “their worm does not die”, etc. It makes it perfectly clear that for them, there is no redemption. There is no coming back from this state. It is not a form of purgatory. It is the end.
3. In all of bibical history, the fate of those God has deemed evil or otherwise in need of judgement have all received the fate of being killed or otherwise eliminated. When Israel was instructed to wipe out entire nations, they were not instructed to torture. They were instructed to kill them all. No kind of torture is never even brought up.
And then there is the whole concept of punishment. What is it? What’s its purpose? (I’m asking rhetorically)
When I view the whole package, though I always had a problem with the “turn or burn” message, I never really thought about it. When I did, and thought about its ramifications, I DID have a problem with it. When I studied it, I saw it for what it is - an apparent false teaching that crept into the church as a way some well meaning humans thought they could scare more people into Christiandom. At best.
Thank you for going to that trouble clarifying it. I agree with everything in that post.
Well... fine, call it what you like: hell, tartarus, gehenna, “the place/state of eternal burning”, eternal damnation, endless torment, etc.; the language in which we speak it (cf. the specific word “hell”) isn’t ultimately the point. As SeekAndFind already said: it doesn’t help your case if “eternal hell” is replaced by “eternal lake of fire”; wouldn’t the souls/beings who are condemned to it find it an equal torment?
It doesn’t address the eternal suffering of the fallen angels
Gehenna was a garbage dump, not a furnace. It had both worms and fire to consume. And in both cases it points out that the force that consumes does not die. Again, an analogy (for obviously Gehenna is not the literal subject of Jesus’ words) for the fate being final. They are gone. Permanently.
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