RE: Yes. You are trying too hard to parse words,
Understanding the word-— torment to be something it isn’t is parsing words? Really ask yourself if the above statement does not describe what you are trying to do.
RE: translated into english.
Torment IS the English translation.
RE: Nothing wrong with that unless you base important doctrine on it.
I think it goes both ways. You are trying to create the doctrine of annihilation and trying to change the common and straightforward understanding of words — torment and forever and ever, and no rest.
RE: In which case, there better be plenty of other scriptures to back it up.
Sure. I mentioned Matthew 25, revelations 14 AND Revelations 20. I don’t see how those 3 passages contradict each other. In fact, a straightforward reading of all these passages do not support extinction at all.
RE: I was reading Romans again this morning and noticed how much Paul uses figures of speech
Which particular passage is that? Please share it with me and we’ll see exactly how we can understand it.
RE: I think the pain of punishment is of VERY short duration, as the duration of the pain of being eaten by a great white shark is of limited duration. But the “punishment” itself is eternal: You are dead and you are not coming back.
Then you have to contend with the following words from the Apostle John:
“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall BE TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends FOREVER AND EVER; and they have NO REST DAY or NIGHT”
Understanding the word-— torment to be something it isn’t is parsing words? Really ask yourself if the above statement does not describe what you are trying to do.
1. God created us in His image. He gave us a sense of justice, though it is only a limited version of His.
2. The eternal torment paradigm grossly violates our sense of justice. The human’s perception of justice involves the concept of the punishment fitting the crime. We don’t punish animals for things they cannot even understand are wrong. However, we sometimes kill them for it (if they are a danger). Likewise, we don’t throw a person in prison for 20 years for driving without license tabs. Because we can’t even understand the concept of eternal torment, we can’t wrap our minds around the concept of a person simply refusing the message of the bible because they are a skeptic being sent to such torment. And that is one reason so many people think the Christian message is foolishness. It is also interesting that many of them are heavily invested in that being part of the Christian teaching.
3. The fate of the lost, over and over, is described using words like “death”, “destruction”, “perish”, and when the length of time of that condition is described, the main point is that the condition is quite final. Hence the “consuming flame”, “their worm does not die”, etc. It makes it perfectly clear that for them, there is no redemption. There is no coming back from this state. It is not a form of purgatory. It is the end.
3. In all of bibical history, the fate of those God has deemed evil or otherwise in need of judgement have all received the fate of being killed or otherwise eliminated. When Israel was instructed to wipe out entire nations, they were not instructed to torture. They were instructed to kill them all. No kind of torture is never even brought up.
And then there is the whole concept of punishment. What is it? What’s its purpose? (I’m asking rhetorically)
When I view the whole package, though I always had a problem with the “turn or burn” message, I never really thought about it. When I did, and thought about its ramifications, I DID have a problem with it. When I studied it, I saw it for what it is - an apparent false teaching that crept into the church as a way some well meaning humans thought they could scare more people into Christiandom. At best.