The 144,000 on mount Sion.

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1)

It is assumed the 144,000 were those who were sealed from the twelve tribes of Israel in Revelation 7. I will attempt to answer these questions: 1) where; 2) who; and 3) when.

To establish the audience and time contexts, St. John was writing to first century Christians, and it was stated many times that the events he was writing about were to "shortly come to pass," or words to that effect. Even in the last chapter the angel of Jesus states the events "must shortly be done," "the time is at hand," "behold I come quickly," and "surely I come quickly."

I will not attempt to spiritualize John's words. I will assume he meant exactly what he wrote: heaven when writing of heavenly things; earth when writing of earthly things; a short time when writing of a short time; and a thousand years when writing of a thousand years. When he writes figuratively, or in mysteries, I will assume he intended his words to relate to things that could be understood by his audience, the early Church, since that intent was conveyed in these verses:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shewunto his servants things which must shortly come to pass… (Revelation 1:1)

". . . Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." (Revelation 22:10; see also Daniel 12:4,9)

John did not specifically state where the 144,000 were located (heaven or earth,) but he did state they were "redeemed from the earth," and were "singing before the throne:"

"And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which wereredeemed from the earth." (Revelation 14:3)

Mount Sion is referenced several times in the New Testament, with this as the likely context:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant..." (Hebrews 12:22-24)

Therefore, mount Sion is a heavenly place where we find the city of the living God--the heavenly Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is also referred to in the Revelation as the "holy city, New Jerusalem;" the "beloved city;" and "the bride, the Lamb's wife." It is also referred to in Hebrews 12:23 as the Church, the term used by many Christians, including me.

Note Paul used the words, "ye are come unto mount Sion" rather than "ye will come unto mount Sion." Therefore mount Sion and the heavenly Jerusalem (the Church) existed at the time Paul wrote the epistle, which was about mid-first century.

With that context in mind, the following passages further identify the heavenly mount Sion:

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient,the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are achosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" (1 Peter 2:5-9 )

"But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. Forthey stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Romans 9:31-33)

"For through him we [Jews and Gentiles] both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22)

We see in these epistles the heavenly mount Sion is also the location of the holy temple, which was built upon the foundation of the holy apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ the chief cornerstone, and with Christians forming part of the building and framework. The scriptures relating to mount Sion are tied together by 1 Peter 2:

In the epistles the reference to the holy temple at mount Sion is past or present tense.

"The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven . . ." (Psalms 11:4)

"Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it. . ." (Psalms 127:1)

". . . Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord: Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both." (Zechariah 6:12-13)

The last verse needs some clarification. David made it clear in Psalms 11:4 that the "Lord's throne is in heaven." Therefore, when the Lord "rules upon his throne" it is from his throne in heaven. Note also in the passage that Jesus (the "Branch") not only builds the temple and rules from his throne, but also serves as a priest upon his throne, not in the temple. The following two verses clarify Christ's role as a priest:

"As [God] saith also in another place, Thou [Christ] art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." (Hebrews 5:6. The other place is Psalms 110:3)

"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands. . ." (Hebrews 9:11)

We shall see later that the 144,000 became priests after their redemption and serve Jesus, the High Priest, in his holy temple (Rev 20:4, 6.)

Jesus as the chief cornerstone of the holy temple at heavenly Sion (or, Zion) was also prophesied by Isaiah, which was one of the references used by Peter and Paul:

"Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." (Isaiah 28:14-18)

In Matthew 21:42 Jesus quoted David (below) who also prophesied that Jesus would become the chief cornerstone:

"The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." (Psalms 118:22-23 )

"And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem." (Isaiah 8:14)

Mount Sion, being a heavenly place, helps explain the coming of the "King" in these verses…

"Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt." (John 12:15)

Mount Sion as an earthly place would make sense only if Jesus had an earthly kingdom, which Jesus clearly said was not the case.

When (or, in what time frame) was heavenly mount Sion created? I am unsure, except that it existed at the time of Paul's epistles to the Romans, Ephesians and Hebrews, and the time of Peter's 1st epistle. I speculate it began on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2,) or upon Christ's ascension to the Throne of David, as explained by Peter (Acts 2:25 -36.) On that day the power of the Holy Spirit was given to a multitude. This was also the first time the word "church" was used in the scripture (v. 47), outside of two brief references by Jesus in Matthew.

One other point: it is likely the pouring out of the Holy Spirit from the Day of Pentecost forward is the same as this:

"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal,proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." (Revelation 22:1)

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38)

"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39)

Therefore, it is safe to assume the Church (the heavenly Jerusalem on mount Sion) was created on, or just prior to, the Day of Pentecost. The conversion of the first Gentile, Cornelius, did not occur until later (Chapter 10,) on the day in which the "tabernacle of David" was raised from its ruins (Amos 9:11, Acts 15:16.)

Anyway, I believe we have established that mount Sion is the heavenly location of the holy city New Jerusalem, which is the Church.

"…These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruitsunto God and to the Lamb." (Rev 14:4)

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." (1 Cor 15:20)

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (1 Cor 15:23)

Paul also used the term in reference to being among the first to receive the Holy Spirit, while anticipating the first resurrection and redemption:

"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also,which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:22-23)

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." (James 1:18)

But they had yet to be redeemed, since it was about mid-first century. Therefore, it appears the 144,000 on mount Sion are those which were redeemed at the first resurrection, and consisted of at least the apostles and the early Church. The 144,000 also appear to be those from the tribes of Israel that were sealed as the servants of God in Revelation 7:1-8. They are also referenced here:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4)

Note the highlighted words: thrones and judgement. If you recall, Jesus gave future judgement over the twelve tribes to the twelve apostles:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matthew 19:28)

All the earliest Christians were considered to be saints, so there is no contradiction. We also know there were at least 10,000 saints that served the Lord before the days of Christ:

"And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them." (Deuteronomy 33:2)

And I would not rule out the patriarchs, prophets and other men of faith from the Old Testament days that were sleeping:

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:11-12)

Taken together with the early Christians, we can now speculate, with some degree of accuracy, who took part in the first resurrection. Recall the resurrection in Daniel 12:1-2 mentioned only Daniel's people: the children of Israel:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:1-2 KJV)

Therefore my implication of a Patriarch-Israel (only) first resurrection is biblical.

The following verse explains the significance of being part of the first resurrection:

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

They became the priests who serve the High Priest, Jesus Christ. The scriptures imply the apostles judge the twelve tribes of Israel, while the other saints judge everyone else. Jesus judges no man (John 8:15.)

The 144,000 possibly included all the surviving remnant of the children of Israel (the "just" ones) that the apostles and prophets spoke of. It does not seem likely that any of the remnant the Lord preserved would continue following Judaism, nor does it seem likely they would survive unscathed under the tyranny of Pharisaic Judaism.

So now we have a good idea where mount Sion is located--in heaven--and we have a good idea who the 144,000 are: the apostles, saints, early Christians, and holy men of old. But "when" were the 144,000 standing on mount Sion?

Both major references to the 144,000 (Rev 7:1-8 and Rev 14:1-5) appear to occur chronologically just prior to the destruction of the mysterious "Babylon the Great." There are many reasons to believe Babylon the Great was the Jerusalem of 70 A.D. These are only a few:

1) The angel of Jesus declared the events would "shortly come to pass." Chronologically, nothing occurred at that time in history with the magnitude of the destruction of Babylon the Great except the destruction of Jerusalem.

2) Babylon the Great's sins were virtually identical to those of Jerusalem; both had the blood of the prophets on their hands, as follows:

"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints,and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev 17:6, Babylon)

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24, Babylon)

"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." (Rev 18:20, Babylon)

"Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" (Luk 13:33-34, Jerusalem)

". . . I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:49-51, Jerusalem)

"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22, Jerusalem)

"For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judgedthe great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand." (Rev 19:2, Babylon)

"Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,… Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord: Thus saith the Lord God; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy." (Ezekiel 16:2, 35-38, Jerusalem. There are many references to Jerusalem's and Israel's whoredoms.)

Babylon lost the voice of the bridegroom and the bride, similar to Jerusalem in the days of the Babylonian captivity:

"Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle." (Jer 25:10 KJV)

"And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." (Rev 18:22-23 KJV)

One other very important point: Moses prophesied in some detail in Deuteronomy 28 about the destruction of Jerusalem; and his prophesy occurred approximately 1500 years prior to the event. Additionally, nearly all, if not all the other prophets foretold the destruction of Jerusalem in one manner or another.

Yet, outside the references to the destruction of Jerusalem by Christ in the Gospels, there is hardly a whisper about it after Christ's resurrection, either before the destruction or for many years thereafter. That was the most significant, "man-caused" event in the history of the world up until that time--even until this time--and there was nothing written about it by the apostles or followers of Christ? Not even a, "See, I told you so!"? Not even by St. John? Nothing? Where were the Christians?

Now, let's assume that John did NOT write the Revelation in A.D. 90-95 (as one person, Irenaeus, and a "bandwagon" of historians implied;) but that John wrote the book earlier during the reign of Nero (as other historians have implied) which was prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Now, everything makes sense! Instead of a book that can and does mean anything and everything, depending solely on the imagination of the reader or interpreter; we have a book that provided both general and specific warnings to some of the early Christian Churches in the Roman Empire just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, as were the angel's instructions to John:

"What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea." (Revelation 1:11)

Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that John was prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem when writing about Babylon the Great. If that be the case, the 144,000 were standing on the heavenly mount Sion in or about 70 A.D.

But what about the 144,000 also being redeemed from earth "at thefirst resurrection" as I implied earlier? That is not so far fetched if we take the words of Jesus literally:

" And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the cloudswith great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, andshall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven . . . Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." (Mark 13:26-27, 30 KJV)

Therefore, at the sound of a (heavenly) trumpet, Jesus came with great (heavenly) power and with his (heavenly) angels to gather together his elect, which was the first resurrection; and this happened at a time within the generation of those who were alive during Christ's ministry. This is better understood to be the time of the destruction of Jerusalem when the earlier verses of Chapter 24 are considered in context. Matthew 24:1-33 can be readily shown to point to the destruction of Jerusalem both in terms of the gospels and the historical record of the time.

To reinforce the understanding that "this generation" meant the generation of Jesus and his apostles:

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:27)

"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." (Matthew 10:23)

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard thatantichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists;whereby we know that it is the last time." (1 John 2:18)

In every other case where Jesus used the phrase "this generation" he meant "his" generation--the generation alive during his ministry and at his crucifixion. These are some, but not all, of those verses:

"But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation." (Luke 21:32)

"From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:51)

"And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?" (Luke 7:31)

"And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation." (Mark 8:12)

"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Matthew 23:34)

Therefore, the First Coming of Christ and the First Resurrection happened around 70 A.D.; and the firstfruits of the resurrection--the 144,000 redeemed from the earth--were standing on heavenly mount Sion with Christ, shortly thereafter.

>>>The Lord’s Day is every Sunday, it’s the Christian Sabbath.

He was at Patmos, banished for preaching the gospel, and it was Sunday, as he says:

Revelation 1

“9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,”

John was prophesying of things to come soon after he wrote his prophesy:

Revelation 1

“1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.”<<<

Nice post, Pieter. It really is amazing how simple and clear the message is that Christ and John were conveying.

Philip

>>>All these bad things... what generation were they pronounced upon? A righteous generation, or a wicked generation? "This generation" is clearly defined in the NT. It is: wicked perverse evil adulterous faithless crooked untoward<<<

So was Jerusalem in the first century. In fact, the Orthodox Jewish Priest and historian, Flavius Josephus, stated the following about Jerusalem of his generation:

"That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world." Wars Of The Jews V.10.5

Wow! That came from an Orthodox Jewish Priest! Jesus and the apostles said, pretty much, the same thing:

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed." (Mat 16:4 KJV)

"And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither." (Luke 9:41 KJV)

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Phi 2:15 KJV)

>>>This generation is that generation. People of the same *character*. <<<

I cannot deny your second sentence. The Devil is also the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow (until destroyed.) The difference is, that generation received the punishment in AD 66-70: over 1.1 million slaughtered or starved to death in Jerusalem, alone! A horror of horrors! Truly the great tribulation, as Jesus prophesied.

>>>It is axiomatic that "this generation" won't pass until all is fulfilled (completed, as in not everything happens at once - foundational rot takes time and requires that the homeowner not pay attention).<<<

All the things Christ prophesied to his disciples during the Olivet Discourse (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) were fulfilled during the contemporary generation of his disciples (by AD 70,) exactly like he said they would.

>>>As long as the termites remain or repairs continue, the work's not done. It's getting to the point where the only effective solution will be to burn the whole house to the ground. The wise have left the building. In essence they fled Egypt and Sodom, carrying with them a supply of unpopped popcorn.<<<

It is much easier to simply destroy Satan and his angels, and their days are numbered .

Philip

Wrong! Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,...... The Lord's day does not begin until the return of Christ right here where He said He would return.

Where does it say that? Christ told his disciples he would return in their generation.

I would be sitting here for days quoting you Scripture where the 'phrase' in THAT day is used, pointing to the Lord's day. Christ did not tell His disciples He would return in their generation. He said Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; WHEN his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, THIS generation (of the parable of the fig tree) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled ......

Do you know the parable of the fig tree? Well, it is getting late in the day if you have no clue what Christ is instructing. Based upon your erroneous claim that Christ was talking to the generation of His disciples says you do not have a clue what this parable is.

IIPeter 3:8 But beloved, be NOT ignorant of this one thing, That ONE day is with The Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Peter was expecting an imminent resurrection. He was trying to console those who were expecting Christ's return even sooner.

Ah, Peter may or may not have fully understood what he penned. I happened to believe he knew exactly what he was being instructed to write. Because of IIPeter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Now wonder what prophets is Peter talking about that that wrote what Peter wrote in this IIPeter 3?

What John is shown in this book covers all three heaven/earth ages. Again IIPeter 3. John wrote down what he was given/shown and it in large part is unfolding while some are sleeping.

You have no proof of that, nor can you find any. The so-called "dispensational ages" do not exist, except in the imaginative words of the new-age inventors of dispensationalism.

What do you mean I have no proof. Peter said what the majority are willingly ignorant of .... and he said in the introduction that the holy prophets also wrote... Have you never read? Genesis 1:2 Describes this flood Peter writes about IIPeter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of,

that by the word of God (holy prophets) the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then WAS, being overflowed with water, perished; .....

Peter is NOT talking about Noah's flood as he already addressed that flood in IIPeter 2:5.

Daniel, long before John penned the book of Revelation, did not understand what he was told to write down. He was told Daniel 12:9 And he said, 'Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.....

Interesting now isn't it that your subject 'the sealing of the 144,000'. Is it a coincidence God sealed up the book of Daniel to Daniel and here we are 'days' later and the subject is the sealing of 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel? HMMMMM and you claim things that are just not true.

The Lord’s Day is every Sunday, it’s the Christian Sabbath. He was at Patmos, banished for preaching the gospel, and it was Sunday, as he says: Revelation 1 “9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,” John was prophesying of things to come soon after he wrote his prophesy: Revelation 1 “1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.”

Sorry Sunday worship service will not fit what John penned. One must compartmentalize the rest of the Scripture to make such a unfounded claim. There are 7 trumps and given what John writes regarding 'a great voice, as of a trumpet,' is part of the prophecy. Christ returns at the 7th trump or as Paul calls it the last trump, wherein all flesh shall be changed. ICorinthians 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (notice Paul says 'all' not just Christians)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trump (that would be number 7) for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shal be changed......

This is a very basic sign, that so long as we are in flesh bodies Christ has not return for His harvest.

>>>I would be sitting here for days quoting you Scripture where the 'phrase' in THAT day is used, pointing to the Lord's day.<<<

I seem to recall there were several so-called "Day's of the Lord." But my question was related to the second part of your earlier statement.

>>>Christ did not tell His disciples He would return in their generation.<<<

He most certainly did, in several different ways.

>>>He said Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; WHEN his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, THIS generation (of the parable of the fig tree) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled ......
Do you know the parable of the fig tree? <<<

Of course I do. Jesus told his disciples that when "THEY" see those signs, the time was even at the doors. The very next verse is where he told his disciples those things would be fulfilled within "THEIR" generation, and they were.

>>>Well, it is getting late in the day if you have no clue what Christ is instructing.<<<

Is there something wrong with your reading comprehension? You are completely ignorning the plain words of Jesus Christ. It is because of your feel a need to spiritualize them?

>>>Based upon your erroneous claim that Christ was talking to the generation of His disciples says you do not have a clue what this parable is.<<<

So, when Jesus said to his disciples:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Mat 16:27-28 KJV)

He didn't mean it? When Jesus said to his disciples:

"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." (Mat 10:23 KJV)

He didn't mean it? When Jesus said to his disciples:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." (Luke 21:32 KJV)

He didn't mean it?

No offense, but I believe the plain words of Jesus. It your intent is to spiritualize the time frame to fit a preconceived agenda, you will not get any sympathy from me.

>>>"IIPeter 3:8 But beloved, be NOT ignorant of this one thing, That ONE day is with The Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.<<<

What was the context of that verse? What was Peter trying to convey?

>>>Ah, Peter may or may not have fully understood what he penned. I happened to believe he knew exactly what he was being instructed to write. Because of IIPeter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Now wonder what prophets is Peter talking about that that wrote what Peter wrote in this IIPeter 3? Again IIPeter 3. John wrote down what he was given/shown and it in large part is unfolding while some are sleeping. <<<

I don't understand what you are trying to convey. How do I know it is not you that is sleeping?

>>>What John is shown in this book covers all three heaven/earth ages.<<<

That is new-age, dispensational gibberish. The new covenant age, which began on or about the ascension of Christ, lasts for ever:

"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." (Eph 3:21 KJV)

>>>What do you mean I have no proof. Peter said what the majority are willingly ignorant of .... and he said in the introduction that the holy prophets also wrote... Have you never read? Genesis 1:2 Describes this flood Peter writes about IIPeter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (holy prophets) the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then WAS, being overflowed with water, perished; ..... Peter is NOT talking about Noah's flood as he already addressed that flood in IIPeter 2:5. Daniel, long before John penned the book of Revelation, did not understand what he was told to write down. He was told Daniel 12:9 And he said, 'Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.....<<<

The subject was the meaningless "dispensational ages" that were created out of thin air in the last century by a charlatan named John Nelson Darby, and promoted by another charlatan named Cyrus Ingerson Schofield.

>>>Interesting now isn't it that your subject 'the sealing of the 144,000'. Is it a coincidence God sealed up the book of Daniel to Daniel and here we are 'days' later and the subject is the sealing of 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel? HMMMMM and you claim things that are just not true.<<<

I really have trouble following your arguments. Would you please attempt to present your case more coherently?

In the meantime, recall that Daniel's book was sealed (Dan 12:4,) while John was instructed NOT to seal his book (Rev 22:10.) Anyone who has not noticed the significance of that has not been paying attention.

Philip

>>>If you did understand the ‘Parable of the Fig Tree’ you would not be making the erroneous statements regarding which generation Christ was pointing to.<<<

There was only one generation he was pointing to: his own. All other interpretations require spiritualization of the time context.

>>>When the flesh body dies the soul/spirit intellect returns to the Maker that sent it, there is no reason to not consider the disciples ‘saw’ the planting of the fig tree.<<<

That is quite imaginative! But, in reality, all the disciples did was ask him a few simple questions, and he answered them.

>>>We are the ‘fig tree generation’. <<<

Every generation thinks they are "it!" LOL!

>>>It was planted when the nations made Israel a ‘nation’ back in the 1940’s.<<<

I doubt God had anything to do with the creation of that secular nation. There is no biblical support for its creation. However, false interpretations, like yours, have made some people lots of money. Just ask the false prophet, Hal Lindsey.

>>>That is why the description is made of branch yet tender, and putteth forth leaves... ye know that summer is nigh: What happens at the end of summer, why, a harvest of course.<<<

Jesus was simply referring to the many events that would occur up to and including the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem.

>>>Then again there is that parable of the 10 virgins .... half ran out of oil (truth) and were sent on their way to buy themselves some oil.<<<

There were lots of parables. How do you interpret that one? When did it occur?

How about the parable of the Vineyard (Mat 21:33-46?) Who were the husbandmen that were destroyed, and who were the new husbandmen?

How about the parable of the Wedding Feast (Mat 22:2-7?) Who were the murderers that the king slew, and which city did he burn up?

Philip

>>>Phil believes in Preterism—nevermind that Matthew 24 is coming to pass before our very eyes now that Israel is a nation again.<<<

Roman War Criminal is appropriately named, and has shown in this forum that he is not a straight shooter. For example, I am not a preterist: I don't claim to be, nor do I fit the definition. But when the War Criminal loses an argument, he gets vengeance by smearing and fabrication.

>>>He thinks Isaiah 17 already happened<<<

I certainly believe that, as do maybe a thousand biblical scholars and commentators over the centuries. Only new-age cults have to push previously-fulfilled Old Testament prophecies into the future to prop up their shaky (and shady) man-made doctrines.

>>>…and that Antiochus Epiphanes is the dread A/C!!!!!!<<<

That is what I mean about the War Criminal: you cannot trust him to quote accurately. He is inclined to fabricate. I have not claimed anyone was/is "the antichrist," because there is no single "antichrist" mentioned in the Bible. In fact, anyone who can read soon learns that everyone in the entire world, except for Christians, is antichrist.

Frankly, I believe the propagation of the "antichrist" myth is little more than a money-making racket: a scam. Fortunate for the scammers, there are plenty of insecure people out there willing to buy most any book with the word "Antichrist" on the label, even if their kids go hungry.

The War Criminal can fill you in on how to join the "Anti-Christ of the Month Book Club," so you can keep up to date on who the current Anti-Christ is. LOL! Just kidding, but barely.

>>>Yep more fruitful to talk to those walls......<<<

Unless you want to discuss/debate the Bible. You certainly have noticed that the War Criminal seems to know almost nothing about the Bible: at least nothing he can defend with other scripture.

Philip

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