Street Language Alert!!!
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Locked on 04/14/2014 6:31:52 PM PDT by Admin Moderator, reason:
Lunar eclipse tonight. |
Posted on 04/05/2014 5:57:23 AM PDT by Gamecock
I hate to break this to you; but Mary is dead; in a grave, and awaiting the Last Trump; just as Everyone who has died in Christ is doing at this point.
So; are you upset that MM agreed with J; or that she was TOO agreeable about the whole matter.
Hear Hear!
Many of us have all be called out by the RM. S/he plays no favorites and applies the rules fairly to all.
At least your re-formed theology is not preterist, or Mormon. Where is Elijah's grave ? Where is Enoch's grave ? Where is Moses' grave ? Where is Mary's grave and why would the Apostolic Church have a different tradition than your church ?
From Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament on Luke 1:28:
"Highly favoured (kecharitōmenē). Perfect passive participle of charitoō and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Eph_1:6, non ut mater gratiae, sed ut filia gratiae (Bengel). The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received’; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow’” (Plummer). The oldest MSS. do not have “Blessed art thou among women” here, but in Luk_1:42."
So Protestants such as myself have no trouble with the expression "full of grace" if it is taken at face value to mean "recipient of grace." Indeed, the only two times I am aware of where the actual expression "full of grace" (plērēs charitos) occurs in the Greek New Testament are as follows:
1: John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (KJV)
2: Acts 6:8 Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people. (NIV)
We obviously would not dispute the phrase in connection with Jesus, though the phrase here does not appear to be a statement of sinlessness per se (that can be demonstrated elsewhere) but of the fullness of the gifts of God the Father to God the Son.
Stephen is a different case. First, notice the difference in version. "Full of grace" is found in the physically older manuscripts, but "full of faith" in the Byzantine text. This means that the KJV and other Byzantine-based translations only apply the phrase to Jesus, but most modern translations (NIV etc) will also apply it to Stephen. But neither text tradition applies it to Mary.
So if one accepts that it applies to Stephen, then it seems to be at least possible a Greek writer could use the expression "full of grace" to describe a person who was saved from sins, a sinner. Hence Robertson's understanding that Mary was a receiver of grace, as any other redeemed sinner is also the beneficiary of God's grace.
As for "Hail Mary," this phrase is a basic term of greeting, rooted in the idea of being happy, rejoicing. It would be like the use of the British "cheers" as a form of "hello." In Matthew 28:9 Jesus greets the disciples with the same term. Clearly the disciples were not without sin, so sinlessness cannot be a guaranteed inference of the term. Nor can it be argued Jesus was using this term to direct the disciples to worship him. They would do that anyway at the mere sight of Him as the Risen Savior. But Jesus is not telling them to worship. He is telling them to rejoice, just as the angel so encouraged Mary.
Anyway, this should give you some insight to why Protestants can hold Mary in high esteem without viewing her as sinless or in the position of co-redemptrix with Christ. The Scripture simply doesn't support such ideas.
You should take another look. What translations does your church approve of ?
In the original English translation from the original Latin it says exactly what you say it doesn't.
Hail Mary!!!!!
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen[10]
Click on the #10 hotlink to see the original Latin that was printed in Gutenberg!
Actually I’m not, and your rebuttal by blaming me is. The irony is not strong with you.
My opinion doesn’t matter. What matters is that the owner of this site had to intervene and make a strong stand that Catholics are most welcome here and Catholic bashing is not. Since you’ve condemned neither FReepers from claiming Catholics aren’t Christians, do you agree?
are apparently denying the Holy Spirit is the author of that Scripture because it is not in the oldest MSS. Is that your testimony ? Which other verses in the Bible do you deny ?
I think I see the problem, here.
None of it is unbiblical or incorrect. Do you agree with salvation that Catholics do not pray to Mary (seeing as that was what my post was about)?
On the other hand, can you show me even one example of anyone praying/making supplication in Heaven to Mary or anyone else, much less to a crowned, enthroned Queen of Heaven?
But taking after their head, what a word means is autocratically defined by the Romans. RCs will argue that asking an angel things in a vision is prayer, but even bowing before, beseeching, and making mental supplications to Mary in Heaven is not praying. Just asking, as if there was a difference in the words themselves. (Gen. 26:7; 32:29; Ps. 122:6)
It is not only praying, but praying to Mary much as to God, as she is not seen, and hears infinite amounts of mental prayer, which are made to her as to a goddess whose power is all but unlimited, incalculable, inconceivable, so that she seems to have the same power as God, the greatness of the power which she wields over one who is God cannot be conceived, whose requests cannot be refused but are like commands to God [so conformed to His will], the dispenser of all he possesses, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven, the whole world being filled with her glory, of immeasurable greatness, enjoying a special place among the Godhead, the holy City of God, the sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity, whom the Holy Spirit only acts by and where only he may enter, and thru whom all blessings and graces come, and who merited bringing forth Christ, having authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven, having the power and the mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels who fell away through pride, to whom all the angels in heaven unceasingly call out to, prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests, thru whom sometimes salvation is more quickly obtained than if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus, and who cannot honor her to excess (just not worshiped, and which of course is clearly understood and evident by her devotees who engaged in prostration before her and making request to her like as to God). http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/MarySC.html#ascriptions.
So your stumbling block is whether Mary was "full of grace" or not. If you use the term "we" someone might misconstrue who you represent. Who do you represent ?
Thank you.
Thank you.
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