Posted on 03/22/2014 1:35:03 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
Was "Babylon The Great" a Symbolic Name for Jerusalem?
Recall that Jesus said:
"… it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33.)
That is a very important statement to keep in mind when considering the following passages: and later in the same chapter of Luke, Jesus added:
"…I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:47-51 KJV)
That is pretty clear. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, and at least some of the apostles. There is more in Matthew:
"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in yoursynagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Mat 23:34-36 KJV)
So, Jerusalem was not only responsible for the blood of all the prophets (and some apostles;) but for all the righteous blood shed upon the earth. And vengeance for that blood was required of the generation that Jesus was speaking to.
We all know that is exactly what happened within that generation: the Roman armies completely destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, fulfilling this prophecy by Jesus:
"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Mat 24:1-2 KJV)
But how do those verses compare to those on Babylon the Great found in the Revelation?
In the Revelation, Babylon the Great is also called the great whore, the mother of harlots, the great city, and the woman. In the context of blood responsibility, John mentions this:
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev 17:6, KJV)
The first martyr of Jesus was Stephen, if I recall correctly; and there were many more. The next chapter reveals additional facts:
"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24, KJV)
But, according to Jesus, Jerusalem is supposed to be responsible for the blood of all the prophets; and Jerusalem is responsible for all the righteous blood? Yet, in the following verse we see that God avenged the blood of the apostles and prophets on Babylon the Great.
“Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.” (Rev 18:20, KJV)
And recall the first scripture at the top:
"… it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33.)
So what do we know:
1. Jerusalem killed many of the apostles, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great
2. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great.
3. Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the righteous, yet Babylon the Great was responsible for "all that were slain on the earth."
There are many other references in the Revelation that tie Babylon the Great to old Jerusalem. This is one of many:
"And their dead bodies [the two witnesses] shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev 11:8 KJV)
It seem our Lord Jesus Christ was killed in both Babylon the Great and Jerusalem. It is difficult to imagine Babylon the Great being any other city than Jerusalem.
Philip
Yeah, yeah, yeah. This γῆ, this γῆν, and this γῆς all look the same to you right?
I’m not even going to give that post the credibility of a response. It supposes replacement theology / supersessionism which I understand you Preterists think is true but is blatantly false.
>>>I’m not even going to give that post the credibility of a response. It supposes replacement theology / supersessionism which I understand you Preterists think is true but is blatantly false.<<<
Your posts are of a consistent “trash and burn” pattern because you don’t know how to respond to anything outside that phony box created by your dispensational cult idols and proven charlatans, John Nelson Darby and Cyrus Ingerson Scofield.
Philip
Of course it is. You have me figured out Philip. Just like your grasp of Greek.
So, we have a Greek Scholar on board Free Republic? Where were you when I asked for a Greek Scholar a few days ago: when I needed someone to verify my interpretation of 1 Thess 4:17?
Regarding your Greek, Young's Analytical Concordance uses the same Greek (γῆ) for both verses: Matt 2:21 and 4:15. So does Strong's. Which mss are you translating from? Why the variation from Strong's?
Since we have your attention, what is the difference in the translation for "land of Israel" (Matt 2:21) and "land of Zabulon" (Matt 4:15.) Both of the popular lexicons say they are the same. Were they using a different mss than you are translating from?
Philip
From the Greek.
Matt 2:21 γῆν
Matt 4:15 γῆ>/b>
Do those look like the same words to you?
One of these days you’ll figure out those Preterists you have been listening to aren’t as smart as you thought they were.
And no, I'm not interested in getting into an extended discussion with you.
>>>And no, I’m not interested in getting into an extended discussion with you.<<<
How can explaining the difference in two variations of the Greek word for “land” be considered an extended discussion?
Why do you always seem to be taking your ball and running home?
Philip
That is exactly what he did. Can you not understand his plain words? How about the words of Daniel's prayer while in captivity:
"O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us." (Daniel 9:16)
Daniel understood this warning from Leviticus:
"If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land." (Lev 26:40-42 KJV)
Do you now understand the concept that one generation of Israelites sometimes paid for their own sins, and the sins of their fathers?
>>>That is totally bonkers. Maybe that works in your Philip theology but not so much in credible hermeneutics.<<<
This is truly sad.
Philip
Rev 20:11-15 is the judgment of the unsaved only.
Again, I don’t discount the correlation to 70 AD..
But, if we read further in Revelation 18, verse 22 to start...
And the voice of harpers and minstrels flute players and
trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee. And the light of the lamp shall shine no more at all in you;
Just a slight piece of revelation 18 that I believe it looks forward because-
There is still music and still craftsmen in Jerusalem, as there is in any spiritual Babylonian city today, maybe even the original Babylon, I don’t know.. I am not booking any trips there :)
Revelation 18 in part has not been fulfilled.. ‘no more at all’ means no more at all... eight times in some form or fashion, that phrase... unless the English gets the Greek wrong in revelation 18...
That is pretty convincing to me that nobody will exist in that babylon he saw in vision ‘no more at all’... we have weapons that can do that within an hour today...
I am not sure exactly what you are saying, so let me make some general statements:
A resurrection in the Bible is the raising of what is left, if anything, of the carnal body into a spiritual body, in a nutshell. Jesus did not have his spiritual body (not yet) when he presented himself to his disciples: hence the scars and holes in his body.
Recall that in Daniel 12:1-2, which refers to the first resurrection, many were resurrected: some to eternal life, and some to eternal damnation. Jesus said the same thing would occur in the second resurrection, only this time, ALL will be resurrected (all except those already resurrected):
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:28-29 KJV)
Revelation 20 is the same resurrection:
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:12-15 KJV)
Note that when death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, no one is in left in them: the people have already been delivered up for judgement. Afterward, the only ones thrown into the lake of fire are those not found written in the book of life. Since other books (of judgement) are opened along with the book of life, it makes sense that one could have his name written in the book of life at that time (if not already written,) if the books of judgement are favourable. If that were not the case--if the book of life already contained the names of those who would be saved--there would be no need for the books of judgement.
The casting of Death (along with "Hell") into the lake of fire is symbolic with this:
"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor 15:25-26 KJV)
One thing is certain: at least some will be resurrected to eternal life, because Jesus said they would be.
Philip
So clearly all evil as been expunged from the earth. /s
I don’t think all of His enemies have yet been made a footstool unto Him.
The people in Revelation 20:12-13 are judged according to their works. This is not a good thing for them.
I believe you are mistaking the current Jerusalem with the holy city of old, before God divorced Israel, left the city of Jerusalem, and destroyed it. You can find almost identical scripture in the OT relating to Jerusalem as found in Revelation 18:
"Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate." (Jer 7:34 KJV)
That is one of the most important passages available in determining the identity of Babylon the Great, because God has had only two brides: Israel and the Church. When Israel became the Great Whore, God divorced Israel, destroyed its "ruler", Jerusalem, along with many outlying Israeli cities; and then took a new bride, New Jerusalem, which is the Church.
Those who believe that old Jerusalem will be restored to its former estate are greatly mistaken. Read these excerpts carefully:
"Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite." (Eze 16:2-3 KJV)
"And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy." (Eze 16:38 KJV)
"They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords. And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more." (Eze 16:40-41 KJV)
"As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters. Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy." (Eze 16:48-49 KJV)
"When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate." (Eze 16:55 KJV)
That ain't gonna happen.
At least, by reading Ezekiel 16, one can understand why God called Babylon, the great city, Sodom and Egypt.
Philip
>>>So clearly all evil as been expunged from the earth. /s<<<
>>>I don’t think all of His enemies have yet been made a footstool unto Him.<<<
That won’t happen until Satan has been defeated: at least that is the way I read Rev 20 and 1 Cor 15.
Philip
Good works are a good thing! Works of the law are unnecessary, and not even recommended; but Jesus and his apostles asked that we do good works. These are some of the references:
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Mat 5:16 KJV)
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (Mat 16:27 KJV)
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10 KJV)
"This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." (Tit 3:8 KJV)
"And let our's also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful." (Tit 3:14 KJV)
"For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister." (Heb 6:10 KJV)
"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:" (Heb 10:24 KJV)
"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" (Jam 2:14 KJV)
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (Jam 2:17 KJV)
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (Jam 2:18 KJV)
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (Jam 2:26 KJV)
"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:" (1 Pet 1:17 KJV)
"Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation." (1 Pet 2:12 KJV)
"Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." (1 Jn 3:12 KJV)
"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:" (Rev 2:2 KJV)
"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Rev 2:9-10 KJV)
"I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth." (Rev 2:13 KJV)
"I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first." (Rev 2:19 KJV)
"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:" (Rev 2:26 KJV)
"I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name." (Rev 3:8 KJV)
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (Rev 22:12 KJV)
BTW, James explained some of the good works that we could do:
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (Jam 1:27 KJV)
In a nutshell, all good works center around this:
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Mat 7:12 KJV)
"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well…" (Jam 2:8-9 KJV)
That is not just the law, it is one of the two great commandments.
Philip
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