I don't think God needs to do any splainin'.... the verses are VERY clear.
Just look up the word "predestined".
Posted on 03/20/2014 7:47:22 AM PDT by Gamecock
Full Title: Predestination: Should We Even Talk About It? Is the doctrine of predestination an obstacle to the usefulness of preaching?
I’d like to begin a series on—get ready—predestination. Yes, I said that word. I know this is not the most popular topic to bring up among polite company; in fact, it’s downright divisive, isn’t it? In the fifth century, Augustine recounted in his letters that some said, “The doctrine of predestination is an obstacle to the usefulness of preaching.” And who wants an obstacle? In the sixteenth century, John Calvin had to go out of his way to state that preachers should preach no less on the deity of the Son, the deity of the Holy Spirit, or the creation of the universe than on predestination.
Should we even talk or preach about predestination? Because predestination is a biblical doctrine, the answer is a resounding “Yes!” You see, without predestination, you would have no Bible. Abram was chosen out of Ur of the Chaldeans (Gen. 12). Israel was chosen out of all the nations of the earth (Deut. 4:37; 7:6–8; Ps. 105:6). A new Israelite remnant was chosen after their exile (Isa. 41:8–9; 42:1; 43:1–7; 44:1–2; 45:4). Jesus taught predestination (Matt. 11:25–27;13:11–16; Mark 4:11–12; John 6:37, 66; 10:26–30; 14:1; 17:6, 9, 11–12). The Apostles taught predestination (Rom. 8:28–39; 9–11; Eph. 1; Phil. 1:6; 2:13; 1 Peter 2:5–10). Since predestination is a biblical doctrine, we must talk about it. The question is how?
Let me point you to a succinct answer. When theologians, pastors, and elders from throughout Europe gathered in the Dutch town of Dordrecht in 1618–1619 to deal with the Arminian controversy, they offered this statement:
“Just as, by God’s wise plan, this teaching concerning divine election has been proclaimed through the prophets, Christ himself, and the apostles, in Old and New Testament times, and has subsequently been committed to writing in the Holy Scriptures, so also today in God’s church, for which it was specifically intended, this teaching must be set forth—with a spirit of discretion, in a godly and holy manner, at the appropriate time and place, without inquisitive searching into the ways of the Most High. This must be done for the glory of God’s most holy name, and for the lively comfort of his people.” (Canons of Dort 1.14)
This blog post lays out the ground rules for how we must talk and preach about predestination as Christ’s witnesses in the world.
With Discernment
We must talk about predestination with discernment. When Paul penned Romans 9, he was writing to a Christian congregation made up of Jews and Gentiles in distinction from unbelieving Jews and Gentiles. Believing Jews were those of the promise while unbelieving Jews were those merely of the flesh (Rom. 9:3, 6–8). Paul used another illustration of this concept when he said that among the Jews there were those who were of the vast sand of ethnic Israel while there were also those who were of a small gathered remnant (Rom. 9:27).
This means that when you talk and preach about predestination, you must always keep in mind those you with whom you are speaking. Are you talking to unbelievers? If so, are they hard-hearted and scoffing at the doctrine, or do you discern the working of the Holy Spirit in their genuinely questioning the truth? Are you talking to a congregation of professing believers? If so, some may be strong in faith and able to plumb the depths and scale the heights of such a doctrine, while others may be weak in faith and the very mention of predestination will cause them doubts and worries. Are you talking to adults, with all the distinctions above, or are there also children in the audience? And while you are talking to such a congregation, keep in mind that there are those who genuinely believe, whether strongly or weakly, and that there may also be those who are merely pretending to believe, as hypocrites do.
With Reverence
We must also talk and preach about predestination with reverence. Paul talks reverently of predestination in Romans 9:20–21: “But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?” This was the climax of Paul’s argument in Romans 9. Paul begins his argument by talking about the unbelief of the ancient covenant people, his fellow Jews (vv. 1–5). The first objection he addresses was whether God’s promise to Israel had failed (v. 6). But Paul says that ever since God began his promises to the patriarchs there was a distinction between those “descended from Israel” and those who truly “belong to Israel” (v. 6), between those who are merely Abraham’s outward children of the flesh and those who truly are children because they are Abraham’s offspring of the promise (vv. 7–8). Paul starts in history and then works his way back into eternity: “though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls” (v. 11).
The next objection is whether God is unjust because he chooses one and not another. Paul’s answer is, “By no means!” (v. 14) He doesn’t speculate but simply quotes Scripture (vv. 15–17), concluding that God “has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills” (Rom. v. 18).
But if this is true, then “why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” (v. 19) Do you hear the objection? It’s that predestination makes us robots since there’s nothing we can do about it. Paul doesn’t offer a philosophical response sorting out this conundrum. He asserts that God is God and we are not; he is the Creator and we are creatures; he is a potter and we are clay (vv. 20–21).
Because predestination is a topic shrouded in mystery as well as much misunderstanding, we should speak of it reverently as Paul did. Notice how Paul ends this entire section of Romans 9–11 by saying, “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” (Rom. 11:33). In commenting on this passage John Calvin said that when we discuss God’s eternal counsel “we must always restrain both our language and manner of thinking, so that when we have spoken soberly and within the limits of the Word of God, our argument may finally end in an expression of astonishment.”
For God’s Glory
We must also talk of predestination in such a way that it is for God’s glory. “God has failed.” “God is unjust.” “God makes us robots.” Paul’s point in Romans 9 is that predestination solves these objections because it is ultimately for God’s glory, not our intellectual satisfaction. “Who are you, O man?” (v. 20) God is God. You are not. “Has the potter no right?” (v. 21) Absolutely he does. He glorifies Himself in His pottery, making “one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use” (v. 21). Paul’s ultimate point is that God glorifies Himself in His works: “What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory” (vv. 22–23, emphasis mine).
When you talk or preach about predestination, are you doing so to bring him praise? “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1:3–4). When you talk or preach about predestination, are you doing so to magnify His grace? “To the praise of his glorious grace” (v. 6). In fact, Paul repeats this doxology two more times inEphesians 1:12 and 1:14 because God has poured out His extravagant grace upon His people. When you talk or preach about predestination, can your words be “translated” to say this: “For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36).
For Our Comfort
Finally, we must talk of predestination in such a way that it is also for our comfort. What comfort does Romans 9 have for you, for the world, and for me? After starting with recorded redemptive history in the Old Testament, then tracing backward into eternity, Paul ends up placing the gospel right in our laps, in our own personal history: “even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?” (Rom. 9:24). Don’t accuse God of lying. Don’t accuse God of injustice. Don’t accuse God of making robots. Rather, believe.
But the objection people had and still have is that when we talk of predestination, it is only beneficial for those whom God “calls.” When you talk of predestination, it should always lead to the gospel: “Do you want to know that you have been called into God’s kingdom because he predestined you for that glory? Then believe in Jesus.” When we talk this way, we lead people to the joy of knowing that while they once were “not my [God’s] people,” God now calls them “my people” and “sons of the living God” (Rom. 9:25–26). As Martin Luther once wrote:
“Follow the order of the Epistle to the Romans. Worry first about Christ and the gospel, that you may recognize your sins and his grace, and then fight your sin, as Paul teaches from the first to the eighth chapters. Then, when you come under the cross and suffering in the eighth chapters, this will teach you of foreknowledge in chapters 9, 10, and 11, and how comforting it is.”
Yes, we should talk about predestination. We should talk about it in a way that leads sinners to Jesus Christ, which brings God eternal glory, and which brings God’s people eternal comfort.
The only problem I have with Predestination is that, if it’s true, there’s nothing you can do about it.
So what’s the point of preaching about it?
It also amuses me that the issues people really go to war over, will slit throats over, have the most absolutely ferocious certainty about, etc., are things that nobody can possibly have any experience of, or perceive in any way—like “prevenient grace.”
Yes, because God exists outside of time.
“Even God doesn’t know what man will do - until a man decides!”
Where does the Bible say this?
The logic of it is very interesting. If He knows the number of hairs on my head and the world runs according to His plan, then I presume He knows what I will choose and when, even though I myself am free to choose along the way. Seems incorrect to think that He doesn’t know how this will end for each of us.
Maybe this is just really a discussion on the precise definition of predetermination/predestination or whatever.
I’ve not bought into the argument that this can’t be discussed because “if the answer is already known, the weak minded will just give up trying.”
From God's point of view, knowing the beginning from the end, all is predestined.
From humans point of view, all we know are the choices we make.
Was Abrahams almost sacrifice of his son for God or for Abraham? Of course God knew the outcome, but Abraham didn't until he prepared to plunge the knife.
“In effect, out choices trump what God intended or predestined for us.”
Really? We are powerful enough to thwart the will of God?
“27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”
John 10:27-29
Hezekiah 4:15
I don't think God needs to do any splainin'.... the verses are VERY clear.
Just look up the word "predestined".
wow - lots of old names on that ping list that Ive not seen in years ;)
Think about it logically. It's predestination - do we really have a choice to talk or not talk about it?
I have some idea of the folks who deny the words of the Scripture in favor of their own fabrication of "free will" and self-determination. My response was not a "retort", but an encouragement to go read the Book and notice, predestination is simply the word used to describe the very real feature of God's universe wherein He has written a story and is playing it out in exacting detail. Those details include your destiny, my destiny, and every single individual created by Him. This goes for Esau (whom He decided to hate, before he was born) and Pharaoh (whom He decided to harden, before Moses even went to him, incidentally). So, yes, there are "vessels created for destruction" (Rom. 9).
The cavalier response you and ShadowAce made ignore His enormous control of every molecule, every moment. And, while this may be motivated by a sincere interest in "fairness", that concept is not biblical. God is not unjust, but His activities can be viewed by broken, sinful humans (that is all of us) as not "fair" unless He gives us the "choice" to trust Jesus or not. But, this is not the message of the Scriptures.
Notice, even Paul found that only those "appointed to eternal life believed." This is the effect of predestination. You may call to anyone and everyone. Many may respond (as in a "revival" meeting or a "crusade"), but only those whom Jesus "knows" (notice, not those who know Jesus) are going to be raised up on that day (John 6). Just trying to get the truth out there...but if it does not sink in, even that is managed by God.
Why don't you look up predestination in your Bible and then get back to me.
Lot of folks are in the FR outer darkness. A few have been called home. Several have moved on and no longer participate on FR. May are still on FR but don't visit the Religion Ghetto.
Ahhh, but those were the good old days!
Theology is what I sometimes call an "armchair sport". It's a academic debate between gentlemen, engaged in while smoking cigars, sitting in high-backed chairs and surrounded by old books. For me, the thinking and the debate itself is the sport. Theology exercises and disciplines the intellect, with the intended goal of "taking every thought captive to obey Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:5).
Me? I'm a big proponent of predestination myself. And I don't advocate for just any old predestination. I'll argue for super-secret double-probation superlapsarian predestination. God's active predestination of our lives is why I am able to "give thanks in all things" (1 Thess 5:18), because "for those who love God all things work together for good" (Rom 8:28).
The problem, as our free-will and Arminian friends will rightly point out, is that right theology not worked through can sometimes lead to wrong behavior. The topic of predestination is about what God does "behind the curtain". The topic IMO does not, and should not bleed over into an excuse for Christians to evangelize less (or not at all) contrary to what our Lord has already commanded in scripture.
I'm glad to discuss predestination with anyone willing to don the requisite smoking jacket, to pour their favorite libation, and to join me in the library to engage in the manly sport of theology. IMO theology is important. And when we leave that room and go out into the world, we should leave the debating back in the library, and (I hope) our common obedience to God, and affection for each other, should look the same to a watching world.
“Theology is the queen of the sciences and all other disciplines are her handmaidens.”
― R. C. Sproul“He that has doctrinal knowledge and speculation only, without affection, never is engaged in the business of religion.”
― Jonathan Edwards
So tell me, all predestination questions aside, do you think God appreciates the insulting tone you use when delivering his truth?
Think about it logically. It's predestination - do we really have a choice to talk or not talk about it?
*** And that totally misrepresents what the Bible says about predestination.
Why don't you look up predestination in your Bible and then get back to me.
________________________
Lighten up, Frances.
I fully understand the concept of God being capable of knowing in advance the entirety of series of results of the nearly infinite choices each individual makes every day. In theory, every aspect of free will is predestined.
Grow a sense of humor, OK? You've got to admit my observation was funny!
God’s will is that we choose:
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
The plan (predestination) is that we be in fellowship with God.
Ephesians 4-7:
4) For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5) he[b] predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
6) to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
7) In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
But we can also choose to not live according to God’s will and thus separate ourselves from God.
In that one verse the truth is pretty hard to miss.
No, I don't believe that my insulting tone was His preference (although I understand that He managed this into my life, yet He remains innocent of my sin). I recognize that I should have delivered His truth in a gentle and informative manner, without snarkiness. Will you forgive me, please?
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