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The Ravenous Wolves of FreeRepublic
Today | Douglaskc

Posted on 01/02/2014 10:13:07 AM PST by DouglasKC

The Ravenous Wolves of FreeRepublic
How do we deal with the insults and pain of those whom Christ called "ravenous wolves"?

Many aren't aware of it but the phrase "A wolf in sheep’s clothing" has biblical origins.

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

The word translated "false prophet" here is not referring to a Godly person who has a prophecy that fails. Instead it's referring to a person who pretends to be a Christian but in reality is not. They are compared to "ravenous wolves" among the flock.

These ravenous wolves exist in life. And they exist here in the religious forum of FreeRepublic. They can be a challenge to our faith and to our Christianity. In this article we're going to examine how to identify these wolves in sheep clothing and how to use our shepard, Jesus Christ, to combat them.

How can we know them? Jesus Christ gave us the answer in the very next verse:

Mat 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

In other words, says Christ, real Christians have a certain, identifiable "fruit". The wolves among the sheep will NOT have these fruits. You can't get grapes from thorns.

Jesus then goes on to make another comparison:

Mat 7:17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

The word translated "bad" means harmful, or evil. Something that is intended to hurt or destroy. So the hallmark of bad fruit is something that is harmful or destructive to people. "Good" on the other hand is something that is beautiful, beneficial, or worthy.

Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

So the mark of a wolf in sheep’s clothing is whether they bear good fruit, or any. In John 15, Christ gives more detail on this fruit.

John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

This fruit is something that Christians have. If someone doesn't have Christ they then won't have this fruit.

The Fruit of the Spirit

But what is this fruit? How can we know whether the fruit is good or bad unless we know what it looks like? Luckily the apostle Paul gives us a good idea of what this fruit looks like in the book of Galatians.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

This fruit, these characteristics, are the natural result of living and abiding in Christ, in having his spirit.
Paul sums them up beautifully in 1 Corinthians:

1Co 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
1Co 13:5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
1Co 13:6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

These characteristics apply across all organizations. Organizations do not have a lock on the spirit of God. If someone exhibits these characteristics on a consistent basis they do have the spirit of God and they are a Christian.

There are many people in various organizations on FreeRepublic that exhibit these traits. Many Catholic, LDS, Protestant and Messianic and other members of FreeRepublic exhibit these traits and thus do have the spirit of God and are Christians.

However there are a very few that rarely if ever exhibit these traits. In fact they exhibit something else....the works of the flesh:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

These behaviors are not just physical but are also spiritual. They are destructive and harmful to themselves and those they come into contact with.

That should not be surprising because the emanate not jut from the flesh, but are demonic in origin. James highlights these works.

James 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom.

Note that good behavior and meekness are hallmarks of of wisdom, having the spirit of the Lord. James contrasts that with other behavior.

James 3:14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth.
James 3:15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic.
James 3:16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.

And back to the righteous:

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.
James 3:18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Animal Behavior

So these are the fruits. The ravenous wolves of FreeRepublic generally act like their namesakes....wolf like.

You've seen them. They'll post derogatory things about others and their faith. The purpose isn't to defend their own faith which often is hidden or not evident. . The purpose is to satisfy their hunger for division, acrimony and blood.

Like animals they seem not to know how to behave civility. They can't address others with whom they disagree without snarling, spitting and insulting. They bare their teeth and pretend that their animal nature is noble and Godly.

They justify their animal nature by pretending that they're just like us. They show us their sheepskin but they can't hide their true nature.

Like a wolf pack there is hierarchy and anyone outside of the pack is instantly set upon if one so much as questions the rules of the pack.

Like a wolf pack they howl, or ping others, when they think they've identified a victim. Peter describes their behavior perfectly:

1Pe_5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

That's how the ravenous wolves of FreeRepublic operate. They bait. They hunt down. They attack. They devour and all the while pretend that they're one of us.

Christ is the Shepherd

How do we deal with these wolves? These impostors? These fake Christians? After all they seem to have the advantage of aggressiveness, viciousness and have no qualms about personally attacking others.

The answer is that "we" can't do anything. We're sheep. We're weak. We're helpless. We don't have the teeth or claws they do.

But we have something else. Something they don't have. We have Christ as our shepherd protecting and guiding us. They can't harm us if we depend on Christ and stay in the flock.

Really all the wolves can do is sit just outside the flock, snarling, biting and snapping at us. And maybe that's why they're bitter and angry. They realize that they're not real sheep. They envy that the sheep have real faith in their shepherd. They wonder why Christ doesn't accept their disguise as being the real thing.

Now certainly we're not perfect sheep. I'm not. Sometimes we take their bait. It's not easy to see other sheep begin attacked or to be attacked. Sometimes we want to snarl back with our little sheep teeth. But it rarely works because to do that we have to leave the side of Christ.

The best strategy is to let Christ take care of them. They're not fooling very many and they're certainly not fooling Jesus. They're interested only in satisfying their hunger. They don't want to debate. When they pretend they are they're really only dangling bait to draw others out where they will be vulnerable and away from the shepherd.

About such Christ said:

Mat 7:6 "Don't give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls to pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them and then tear you to pieces.

These ravenous wolves of FreeRepublic have figured out how to manipulate and find the "loopholes" in the forum rules so their rude, crude and unChristian behavior is tolerated. But they're not fooling anyone. A leopard can't hide his spots.

Ultimately they are to be pitied. Clearly they've had experiences in their lives where they've been hurt deeply. They've been betrayed. They've been picked on. They've been abused. So not knowing Christ they do the same to others. They behave like animals as all Christians did before becoming Christians.

But they don't have to. One day God will open up their eyes. He will show them that they are only pretending to be sheep and they will realize their animal nature and be ashamed. And then Christ will show them HOW to become sheep.

Our prayers should be that they will change. That they will bear fruit worthy of repentance. And we should examine ourselves and our attitudes toward them and others. To pray that God gives us the wisdom, kindness and gentleness to deal with those who would use us and spitefully accuse us.

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I tell you this: Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.
Mat 5:45 In this way you show that you are children of your Father in heaven.

This should be our goal. To let the light of our Father shine through and to glorify him. A tall order to be sure but the only way to stand up to the wolves.


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: antichristian; armstrong; christian; cult; freepers; ibtz; inman; jesus; mormon; ravenouswolves; sectarianturmoil; wolves
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To: Colofornian; DouglasKC; Kevmo; Elsie; All

More:

The UCG is actually very concerned with demonstrating who God’s real disciples are:

“Millions of people claim to be Christian—followers of Jesus Christ. Yet their beliefs, practices and lifestyles differ greatly. Jesus said His true followers are “called, chosen and faithful.” How can we discern who His true disciples are?”

Salvation, according to the UCG, is through a “conversion’ process, and not all those who claim to be Christian, according to them, are actually Christian. They have wrong “religious beliefs” and “assumptions”:

“His warning [Christ’s warning, see link] should cause all of us to carefully consider our religious beliefs and assumptions. Why? Because many who claim to be His followers, who claim to have done great deeds in His name, will be rejected by Him. He will tell them, “I never knew you” (verse 23). How, then, can we distinguish the authentic disciples of Christ, who really are doing the will of the Father, from those who call Jesus “Lord” but neglect or refuse to do God’s will?”

Note carefully, those who “neglect or refuse to do God’s will”. This refers, again, to living God’s ‘way of life.’ They go on:

“Jesus warned that “narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:14). Should we be surprised? Most people simply ignore Jesus’ words when they don’t agree with them. Nevertheless, Jesus tells those who wish to be His true disciples that they must “enter by the narrow gate;”... Even if one becomes a disciple of Christ, he is still in danger of being swept back into the clutches of Satan, the archenemy of all who would be godly.”

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/transforming-your-life-process-conversion/who-are-gods-true-followers/

Salvation is actually quiet a difficult thing, according to the UCG, and even once a person is converted, they can still be swept back into the “clutches of Satan”

So, WHO are the authentic disciples of Christ who have entered in by the “narrow” way, and what IS that narrow way? The UCG tries to suck you into their religion quite slowly throughout the whole booklet, but here it is in a nutshell:

Christ’s true disciples are those who, according to the UCG, have true heart rending “repentance,” devote themselves to following all the commandments of God, and who begin the “conversion” process (conversion is life-long) through “baptism,” and the “laying on of hands” in order to receive the Holy Spirit:

From the article titled “Is the laying on of hands necessary to receive the Holy Spirit?”

“The Bible gives us a clear answer. Paul came upon some believers in Ephesus who had been baptized by no less than John the Baptist. Yet they had not received the Holy Spirit for two reasons. One is that they did not have the laying on of hands. The other was that they apparently did not fully understand the Christian way of life, the covenant into which one enters through baptism.”

Note, again, the “Christian way of life”. Until John’s disciples could be indoctrinated into still maintaining the Mosaic dietary and feast days, and in living in obedience to the UCG of the 1st century. It goes on:

“What did their baptism by John accomplish? Undoubtedly, it helped prepare them for conversion, for he preached repentance. And it likely strengthened their resolve to obey God. But the baptism didn’t bring about their conversion or result in their receiving the Holy Spirit. Clearly, many factors have to be in order for that to take place, including knowledge of sin (the transgression of God’s law, 1 John 3:4), an awareness of the need for forgiveness, true repentance (turning from sin to obedience) and a clear understanding of the obligations of Christianity. In addition, the baptism should, under normal circumstances, be done by a minister of God’s true Church, followed by the laying on of hands and prayer to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Note that these are “obligations”, and that this, under “normal circumstances,” should be done by a “minister of God’s true church” UCG Inc., “followed by the laying on of hands” to receive the Holy Spirit.

http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/laying-hands-necessary-receive-holy-spirit

Those who do NOT have the Holy Spirit (which is received, again, through the laying on of hands) are not part of ‘God’s family,’ and cannot become God personages in the next life:

“Receiving God’s Spirit is essential to conversion. The apostle Paul makes it clear that you must receive the Holy Spirit to become a part of God’s family and Church: “If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His” (Romans 8:9). Why are those without God’s Spirit not the people of God? Because, as Paul explains, “as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God” (verse 14).”

If you are part of God’s family, after death, you will have a “future beyond compare” where you will share the “full nature of God”:

“Above these in the spirit realm is the angelic kingdom. And above all is the God Kingdom. God intends to raise man from the human kingdom, over the angelic kingdom, to the God Kingdom—the Kingdom of God. Indeed, in an ultimate sense, the Kingdom of God is synonymous with the ruling family of God, all members of which will share the full nature of God.”

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/what-your-destiny/life-gods-family/

Again, you will become a “divine spirit being” like the Father:

“Now what could that mean? Well let’s tear it apart. If you’re filled up to all the fullness of God and your family’s last name is now God, in other words you are named a part of God’s family, well that can only mean that you can become a literal son or daughter of God, a full fledged member of His family, a divine spirit being like God in His eternal family.”

More:

“Your Bible shows that people were created according to the God kind, to be a part of God’s spiritual family. Now this may seem astonishing to you, that God is in fact reproducing spiritual children after His kind through humanity.”

http://www.ucg.org/beyond-today-program/doctrinal-beliefs/family-destiny

God is REPRODUCING after the “God kind,” to produce new divine children who will inherit not only all that he has, but “all that he is”! And it’s just one toll free number away!:

“Request your booklet, What is Your Destiny, it will help you understand the incredible truth about your future and as always all of our publications are provided free of charge as an educational service in the public interest. Your copy is waiting for you so click or call toll free 1-888-886-8632 or go online to BeyondToday.tv download it” (Same link as above)


501 posted on 01/06/2014 4:40:31 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
In either case, there’s lots of details Douglas seems to be determined to leave out.

I'll be glad to give you other opinions, speculation, or expansions upon what I believe....but if I link to UCG like you do you'll accuse me of proselytizing again...I can't win! :-)

502 posted on 01/06/2014 5:02:45 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

“but if I link to UCG like you do you’ll accuse me of proselytizing again...I can’t win! :-)’


“Again”? I have no idea what you are even talking about. You might be confusing me with Jim.


503 posted on 01/06/2014 5:10:45 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; DouglasKC; All
Ah quite revealing!

Particularly the following two UCG teachings:

1

"Indeed, in an ultimate sense, the Kingdom of God is synonymous with the ruling family of God, all members of which will share THE FULL NATURE OF GOD." http://www.ucg.org/booklet/what-your-destiny/life-gods-family/

AND:

“Now what could that mean? Well let’s tear it apart. If you’re filled up TO ALL THE FULLNESS OF GOD...you can BECOME a literal son or daughter of God, a full fledged member of His family, a DIVINE SPIRIT BEING like God in His eternal family.” http://www.ucg.org/beyond-today-program/doctrinal-beliefs/family-destiny

What does this tell us about United Church of God teachings?

a

In light of this..."9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form..." (Colossians 2)... there goes Jesus' uniqueness...You, too, can be 100% like Jesus Christ having the "FULL NATURE of God" and "ALL THE FULLNESS of God"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

b

Despite all the assurances by God of no other divine beings in Isaiah 43, Isaiah 44, Isaiah 45, and other verses, you too can become a "DIVINE spirit being like God"!!!!!

No wonder DouglasKC has shown so much affinity with the Mormons on Lds threads all this time!!!

c

And then this UCG excerpt here was a key thought in attempting to "translate" DouglasKC's last post to me:

"...you can BECOME a literal son or daughter of God..."

Douglas wrote in post #497:

So it's clear that we are sons of God in one sense, but we are to become sons of God in another sense."

So the UCGites are right up the same kind of dilemma the MORMONS are on this...

On the one hand, the Mormons preach we are ALL LITERAL spirit children from some pre-existence...On the other hand, even the Book of Mormon (book of Mosiah) preaches in two places that we are to BECOME children of God...and the Bible says this same thing in John 1:12 plus Paul's present-tense "adoption" verses in Romans 8 and Ephesians.

How can we be "adopted" if we ALREADY are "literal" children of the Father? (Quite problematic in Mormonism; and DouglasKC just tries to skirt right around a similar UCG prob)

UCG's "version" of this is dilemma is that they like to cite the "we'll become" literal children of God (so they simply futurize what the Mormons do in retro)...

And yet here's all these Biblical verses that say we have ALREADY become adopted children...

What's the "becoming children" if we ALREADY ARE, Douglas?

504 posted on 01/06/2014 5:32:26 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
Nice talking to you while it lasted. :-)

Enjoy the rest of your day and God bless...

505 posted on 01/06/2014 5:49:20 PM PST by DouglasKC
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Comment #506 Removed by Moderator

To: DouglasKC; Greetings_Puny_Humans; Elsie; All
(Yeah, well, when you get time later this week, perhaps you can answer the direct Q:

How do you "become" a child of God in heaven IF...
...you already are an adopted child of God down here?

(And how this UCG doctrine must exasperate the Mormons e'en more! Here they already have to deal with "becoming" God's children a second time on Planet Earth...and now the Armstrongites are telling them they've got to do it a third time in heaven! If ONLY all the cultic sects under the sun would just have one giant "cult convention" to make things a little less confusin' for their adherents!!!)

**************************

ALL: for the rest of you, here's some of the problems in a nutshell:

The Bible: "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to BECOME children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. (John 1)

If you're not "born again" (or 'born from above'), no kingdom of God for you.

The Greek word, "right" in John 1:12 is exousia...authority...right. Jesus, through John, indicates that this "childhood of God" doesn't arrive through "natural descent" -- like being born a Mormon. It's only through being "born of God." [And again, if this was talking about some pre-existence, Paul's verses about being "adopted" as His children would be ludicrous]

And that word ”become” isn't particular to the Bible, either:

...for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have BECOME his sons and his daughters. (Mosiah 5:7)

This passage talks about changed hearts through faith -- not through a pre-existence spirit-birth, which isn't even mentioned in the BoM.

"And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, BECOMING his sons and daughters; And thus they BECOME new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God." (Mosiah 27:25-26)

The apostle Paul emphasized that we are to be adopted children
-- he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will (Eph. 1:5)
-- and not children of some pre-existence; hence, that’s why the Book of Mormon like passages from Mosiah talks about Mormons becoming children -- NOT that they always have been children).
In fact, Paul describes this adoption as future tense: we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Rom. 8:23)

And then...the UCG position (see post #504) on this, yields even greater confusion for those seeking to impose a certain theological perspective upon the Bible!

507 posted on 01/06/2014 7:35:04 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
(Yeah, well, when you get time later this week, perhaps you can answer the direct Q:

I'm sorry friend, I have no desire to engage in conversation when the tenor is not pleasant and courteous. Have a great night and God bless....

508 posted on 01/06/2014 8:11:15 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: xzins; ravenwolf
I teach that the tithe preceded the law, as demonstrated by Abraham’s tithe to Melchizadek and that it was considered a means of the lesser honoring the greater.

The Sabbath also preceded the law, being established in the days of creation and given to Israel before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai (Exo. 16). It is a means of honoring and emulating the Creator. So why teach the tithe and not the Sabbath?

I'm not trying to pick on you, xzins. I'm just showing why I think Christians have an inconsistant hermeneutic here--one that is, whether they intend it or not, self-serving for the pastors who teach it.

Shalom.

509 posted on 01/07/2014 6:42:05 AM PST by Buggman (returnofbenjamin.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: Buggman; xzins; ravenwolf
The Sabbath also preceded the law, being established in the days of creation and given to Israel before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai (Exo. 16). It is a means of honoring and emulating the Creator. So why teach the tithe and not the Sabbath?

Not sure of your beliefs but yup, and it's prophesied to be observed in the future along with the feast days.

You're either messianic or Jewish correct?

510 posted on 01/07/2014 7:10:34 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: Idaho_Cowboy
This is the only place I have found that you can debate religion, politics, and philosophy on fairly deep subjects without getting called names.

Oh
My
Sides!!!

Best laugh I'll have all day!

511 posted on 01/07/2014 7:17:48 AM PST by usconservative (When The Ballot Box No Longer Counts, The Ammunition Box Does. (What's In Your Ammo Box?))
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To: DouglasKC; xzins; ravenwolf
Correct. While my own Jewish ancestry is muddled at best, my wife and therefore my children are fully Jewish (an orthodox rabbi was even willing to serve as my son's moyel on that basis). Back while we were still dating I basically pulled a Ruth and said to her, "Your people will be my people."

However, since all this took place in a Messianic synagogue rather than an Orthodox one, I accept the right of my people not to accept me as their person. I've been rather surprised and gratified at how many do, particularly among my wife's extended family, but my love for and commitment to the Jews is not dependent on that love ever being returned.

The end result is that after many years of studying the issues, I've decided to go with Romans 14 and not make a huge issue out of the Sabbaths and Feasts to Gentiles. If a Christian can give a cogent argument as to why they don't observe the "Jewish" feastdays from the Scripture, then I still regard them as my brother in the Messiah, striving to keep the commandments of God to the best of their understanding out of faith. I believe that Isaiah 56 contains a Divine invitation to those non-Jews who wish to partake in Jewish cultural life to do so, but that the NT clarifies this to be an invitation, not a compulsion.

The only reason I'm picking on the tithe is because for a Christian to insist on it does require an inconsistant hermeneutic.

However, I reject the forced (or even socially pressured) Gentilization of Jewish Christians as being every bit as much a false gospel as the forced Judaizing of Christians.

Hopefully not TMI, but I think it's best to be open and honest on these issues to avoid misunderstanding.

Shalom.

512 posted on 01/07/2014 8:17:39 AM PST by Buggman (returnofbenjamin.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: Buggman
The end result is that after many years of studying the issues, I've decided to go with Romans 14 and not make a huge issue out of the Sabbaths and Feasts to Gentiles. If a Christian can give a cogent argument as to why they don't observe the "Jewish" feastdays from the Scripture, then I still regard them as my brother in the Messiah, striving to keep the commandments of God to the best of their understanding out of faith. I believe that Isaiah 56 contains a Divine invitation to those non-Jews who wish to partake in Jewish cultural life to do so, but that the NT clarifies this to be an invitation, not a compulsion.

Agreed on most points.. though you're more gentle in your response than I usually am. I do feel the obligation though to publicize what scriptures say about the sabbath and the feast days as part of that invitation...to have information ready when the one who God calls is ready to come to the party.

Romans 14 I think is misunderstood and in the context of the time and the chapter. My understanding is that it isn't giving carte blanche to not observe the days of the Lord and to observe others...it's referring to something else...tradition has made it into something it's not. But you can see it's an uphill struggle to share that viewpoint.

However, I reject the forced (or even socially pressured) Gentilization of Jewish Christians as being every bit as much a false gospel as the forced Judaizing of Christians.
Hopefully not TMI, but I think it's best to be open and honest on these issues to avoid misunderstanding.

No, it's all good though I don't consider that gentiles keeping the feasts of the Lord as being judaizing but rather as what God intended. Not sure if that's what you meant but thought I would cover it. As you can imagine being a sabbatarian who keeps the feast days I run into and communicate with many messianics. Glad to have you on the thread.

513 posted on 01/07/2014 9:27:45 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: ravenwolf
Why did they go to so much trouble to change the day of rest.

Short version: Even in the Apostles' time, it was customary for Yeshua's disciples to both go to synagogue on the Sabbath and to have a fellowship dinner after sundown Saturday night, which because of how Jewish days are tracked (sundown to sundown) would be considered to be the 1st day of the week, the day of the Resurrection. As the synagogues became more hostile to the Nazarenes in general and the Gentile Christians in particular, the Saturday night meeting became the mainstay of the Church. In many places, this started wrapping around to Sunday morning.

After the Bar Kochba revolt pretty much resulted in the Empire declaring war on Judaism, the Greek and Roman Christians had every motivation to distance themselves from the hated Jews. This resulted in a huge debate on Sabbath vs. Sunday and keeping Pascha on the Jewish calendar or just making up a date on the Roman one that carried on until the Council of Nicea formally renounced all Jewish practice in the Christian Church.

Once Roman anti-Semitism settled into the Church and European culture in general, there was never much of a reason to revisit the issue, so everyone just passed down Sunday as the holy day. This fit with the narrative of the Roman Catholic Church that it had the authority to change God's law, but Protestants were so used to Sunday that there were few attempts to change it back.

In a way, I don't mind since the Church having distinctive holidays apart from the Jews helped to preserve the latter as a distinct people. However, the fact is that the Church actively purged any hint of Jewishness out of those Jews who did come to faith in the King of the Jews, thus preaching a false gospel to the Jews.

I've got some blog posts on the subject entitled Judenrein Christianity if you'd like to see it.

Shalom!

514 posted on 01/07/2014 9:34:32 AM PST by Buggman (returnofbenjamin.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: Buggman

I do teach the Sabbath is Saturday. I also teach the Lord’s day is Sunday. I also teach those whose jobs require those days to work should pick an alternative rest and/or worship day elsewhere in the week.


515 posted on 01/07/2014 9:43:58 AM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: xzins
I do teach the Sabbath is Saturday. I also teach the Lord’s day is Sunday.

Then we're cool.

Shalom.

516 posted on 01/07/2014 9:48:55 AM PST by Buggman (returnofbenjamin.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: Buggman; xzins; DouglasKC

The Sabbath also preceded the law, being established in the days of creation and given to Israel before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai (Exo. 16). It is a means of honoring and emulating the Creator. So why teach the tithe and not the Sabbath?


I also am not trying to pick on any one, i believe it is fine to hold service any day of the week except Saturday.

FOURTH COMMANDMENT. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

And as has already been stated.
Genesis 2

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

It was a day of rest.

The Sabbath is the only holy day (holiday) we are commanded to keep, yet it was changed to Sunday hundreds of years ago for political reasons

And Christians are being told they must worship a dozen other days as holy days but leave out the only holy day god really commanded every one to keep.

As far as i know the paying of tithes is not a commandment but was a law for Israel as a nation.

There is nothing in the new covenant about paying or giving tithes but only alms which was not to be recorded or even kept track of by the giver.

At first this would have been hard for me to write because there are many preachers whom i dearly love but i can not have fellowship with a Church that has more laws than Jesus himself followed and ignore the ones that were commanded by God.


517 posted on 01/07/2014 10:09:26 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: DouglasKC
I'm pretty sure that trying to get Gentiles to keep Jewish feasts isn't all that much a Jewish attribute. Most don't want Christians keeping their cultural markers and get very nervous about Messianics adopting them. It blurs lines that have long kept our people safe from assimilation.

I do feel the obligation though to publicize what scriptures say about the sabbath and the feast days as part of that invitation...to have information ready when the one who God calls is ready to come to the party.

What I like to do is invite: I'll happily challenge every Christian I meet to keep the Feasts for a year as a way of educating and edifying themselves, and direct them to resources to help them do just that. But if someone doesn't bite or their understanding of Scripture is that this would somehow be detrimental to their walk with the Lord, I may cheerfully argue with them if they're the sort to enjoy it, but it doesn't mean that they're not my brother.

But you can see it's an uphill struggle to share that viewpoint.

It is. What do you think it's dealing with, out of curiosity?

No, it's all good though I don't consider that gentiles keeping the feasts of the Lord as being judaizing but rather as what God intended.

Ultimately, I agree, and have quoted Isa. 66 and Zec. 14 in support of that view. But since a) the Apostles did not emphasize the Feasts for the Gentile disciples (though neither did they disinvite them), b) Christians do generally have reasonable arguments for their particular practices in this regard that show their loyalty to the Author of Scripture, c) we're saved by trust in and loyalty towards a person, not a set of commandments or creeds, and d) I've found the invitation approach to be more fruitful, I go with that over attacking my Sunday-brethren's practices.

Frankly, given the state of the world right now, I don't see the fruit of the Spirit in--or any practical purpose for--brethren forming circular firing squads over this debate. I do see the need for continued reasoned debate, but I also realize that we're looking at a generational process to change some long-standing errors in the Church. Therefore, I see the first step is to get Christians of all stripes and practices to acknowledge the basic right of Jews to be saved as Jews and be encouraged to remain Jewish.

Once you get that acknowledgement, a lot of the grace vs. law issue automatically becomes reframed in such a way that a theological barrier is removed and a Christian can genuinely enjoy accepting an invitation to, say, Passover. We've been seeing the fruit of this "live and let live" approach for over a generation now. We've seen the result of taking a hard-line stance too: It just puts people's backs up and hardens them against enjoying the Feasts with the thought, "He's trying to take away the grace of God and put me under the law!"

Besides, Hashem was very gracious to me during the several years between the time Matthew 5:17-19 first smacked me between the eyes and when I first started keeping Torah. I needed that time to reconsider and re-evaluate the whole theology and tradition I'd been raised in, and to overcome the intellectual and emotional barriers. Had I gotten a hardline Messianic hammering away at me during that time, I'd probably have rejected it. Why should I not be equally gracious and let the Spirit work in someone who may just be starting down a new and difficult road?

Shalom

518 posted on 01/07/2014 10:25:26 AM PST by Buggman (returnofbenjamin.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: Colofornian

So it’s clear that we are sons of God in one sense, but we are to become sons of God in another sense.”


Just goes to show that it is hard for two people to be on the same track.

Paul was talking about the present in some of the scripture but he was talking about future in others, for instance.

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The above had not happened yet, it was future, they were not yet glorified.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

They were still waiting for the final adoption.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is past tense, it had already happened at the time of Pauls writing.


519 posted on 01/07/2014 10:40:26 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: Buggman

Short version:


I had it figured about that way but never went into details.

Judenrein Christianity

We would like to think that “true Christians” would never visit such harm on the Jews,


I do not think true Christians would, but i do believe there are some so called Christian religions that would and did.

There are some words in the translations that may be off a little, i just read every thing surrounding the scripture to get the picture. i do not believe in religion so i do not have be able to speak any other language.

My daughter both speaks and reads Hebrew ( at least i think it is Hebrew ) when she wants to but i have no idea what she is talking about even when she is speaking in English.

She wants to go into all of the philosophy and literature which i care nothing about.

But i guess i will have to get into the Judenrein Christianity to see if i can understand it.

My daughter only went through the eighth grade and i did not get that far.


520 posted on 01/07/2014 11:15:28 AM PST by ravenwolf
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