Posted on 12/16/2013 8:08:08 AM PST by GonzoII
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In his book, Answers to Catholic Claims, A Discussion of Biblical Authority, Protestant Apologist James White claims praying to saints is contrary to Scripture: The Bible strongly condemns communication with the dead. It does not matter if those who died were good or bad, saintly or evil, there is to be no communication between the living and the dead. The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone. Biblical texts like Deut. 18:10-11 and Isaiah 19:3—each of which condemns necromancy—are employed to say “communication with the dead” is condemned absolutely. Actually, what is being condemned in these texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, not praying to saints. The Church has always condemned this that is commonly called necromancy. Mediums attempt to conjure up spirits and manipulate the spiritual realm at will. This is categorically different from Christians asking for the intercession of their brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not “conjure up” or manipulate anything or anyone. True prayer—whether to God or the angels and saints—changes the pray-er, not the pray-ee. If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31: And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem. According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White. FIRST CONTACT There is another point to White’s argument that requires a deeper level of response. Notice, he said, “The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.” This point taken alone would not exclude communicating with the dead in any context. It would only exclude such communication if contact originates from the earth dweller. In one sense, it seems Mr. White, as well as our Protestant friends he represents by his statement, is stuck in an Old Testament mindset. It is true that we do not see Old Covenant faithful initiating prayer to the dearly departed, but this is to be expected because the faithful dead before Christ and the beatific vision afforded by him would not have had the power to either hear or respond to those prayers. Moreover, the Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the after-life that only came with the Revelation of Christ. Jesus Christ introduces a radical development the Old Covenant saints could not have imagined when he clearly initiates the communication with the faithful departed unlike anything we saw in the Old Testament. I say “clearly” because even Protestant Apologist Eric Svendsen seems to see it, though I’m not sure how cognizant he was of the rammifications of this statement he made about the Transfiguration in his book, Evangelical Answers: The transfiguration was an apocalyptic event choreographed directly by the Son of God to give the apostles a glimpse of his eschatological glory… If Jesus “choreographed” it, then he initiated it. Some may say, “Well, he’s God, so he can do that.” Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same. This is precisely what we mean as Catholics when we say we “pray to the saints.” THE BIBLE SAYS SO The New Testament presents to us very plain examples of the faithful on earth initiating communication with the saints in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Chapter 11 gives us what I call the “hall of faith” wherein the lives of many of the Old Testament saints are recounted. Then, the inspired author encourages these to whom he referred earlier as a people who were being persecuted for their faith (10:32-35), to consider that they are “surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,” encouraging them to “run the race” of faith set before them. Then, beginning in 12:18, he encourages these New Covenant faithful by reminding them that their covenant—the New Covenant—is far superior to the Old: For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire … darkness … gloom … and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them… But you have come to… the city of the living God… and to innumerable angels… and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven… and to… God… and to the spirits of just men made perfect… and to Jesus… Notice, in the Old Covenant the faithful approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, the faithful have experienced a radical change for the better. “But you have come to … and to … and to … and to.” In the same way we can initiate prayer and in so doing “come to” God and Jesus, we can also “come to” the angels and “the spirits of just men made perfect.” Those would be the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God. The Book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth: The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14). These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4: And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. And these prayers offered to God through the mediation of the angels are answered as symbolized by “thunder” and “lightning” that are then cast upon the earth through those prayers: Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth; and there were peals of thunder, loud noises, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. The bottom line is this: Both the faithful on earth and our brothers and sisters in heaven (and let’s not forget our “cousins,” the angels) are all acting just as Catholics would expect. Believers on earth are initiating prayers which the saints and angels in heaven are receiving. Is this the necromancy condemned in Deuteronomy and Isaiah? Absolutely not! This is New Testament Christianity. |
Amen!
Tob 12:12,15 "Now therefore, when thou didst pray, and Sara thy daughter in law, I did bring the remembrance of your prayers before the Holy One: and when thou didst bury the dead, I was with thee likewise...I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One. "
Legitimate indeed... I was meaning to comment generally on the subject at hand, not a retort to your question... sorry.
I see it as trying to describe the color magenta to a person who only sees in grayscale.
Tob 12:12,15
That explains it.
And the grayscale folks get into a big fight over what magenta “means”.
There IS a resurrection, there IS a judgement, the IS life ever after. That is the only certainty in the swirling grayness of our fallen world.
Also, for those who don’t have time to read the long breakdown of Lazarus and the Rich Man, here is a nice summary from this site:
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d030602.htm
It’s amazing, once you actually study a subject, you realize that a lot of pastors, often themselves duped, are leading people astray in some very subtle ways.
Summary of the Symbols
The Lazarus of the parable was Eleazar, Abraham’s steward (Genesis 15:2).
He was a Gentile “of Damascus” (”a proselyte of the gate”) who “ate the crumbs.”
He was disinherited (to become a beggar) but he remained faithful to Abraham and God.
When this earthly life was over, he received Abraham’s inheritance after all (he was in Abraham’s bosom) — in “everlasting habitations.”
The Rich Man of the Parable was Judah. This son of Jacob had five literal brothers as did the Rich Man.
He was also a literal son of Abraham, while Eleazar (Lazarus) was not!
The Rich Man (Judah) also had the kingship (purple) and the priesthood (linen).
Yet Judah (representing God on this earth) was not the true steward of the Abrahamic blessings.
Though he and his literal brothers had been graced with the “oracles of God” (the Old Testament) they would not respond to the One resurrected from the dead (Christ).
The “great gulf” was the Jordan rift valley the dividing line between Gentile lands and the Holy Land of promise (Abraham’s inheritance). Crossing the Jordan was a typical figure recognized by the Jews as a symbol of salvation.
Once these factors are recognized, all the points in the parable (with its context) fit perfectly to give us some simple but profound teachings of Christ. It shows that the physical promises of God (though excellent) are very inferior to the spiritual redemption that anyone (Jew or Gentile) can have in Christ.
If you did, would you be obtuse?
There IS a resurrection, there IS a judgement, the IS life ever after. That is the only certainty in the swirling grayness of our fallen world.
About three years ago I finally came around to the “fate of non-believers is the second death where they are utterly destroyed for all time and eternity (i.e. no eternal suffering)”. Man, has that one gotten me into some hot water with people who strongly believer it - but never actually studied it.
You are thinking only of the physical body. Read about Near Death Experiences. The people who actually die can float above their body on the operating table or wherever their death takes place, hear and see what is going on as well as hear and see heaven or hell == then are usually sent back.
Their lives are changed forever....many of them becoming Catholic.
This needs to be repeated..........
If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31:
And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.
According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White
Preach it!
I am very skeptical of near death experiences (you really capitalize that?) I don’t attribute it completely to a dying mind tricks but the evidence is so ephemeral that I don’t spend any time thinking about it.
Also Jesus could walk on water. Does that mean we can walk on water?
***Their lives are changed forever....many of them becoming Catholic.***
No hope in that!
??
Much hope in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
You WILL come to believe.
Which is why I think experientially and subjectively Christ might have spent some great amount of time preaching in Hell greater than the 3 temporal days and nights his body was dead in the tomb.
Steven died 2000 years ago and Ol’ Bubba Christian might have died yesterday but I could see a scenario where Bubba wakes up, sees Steven standing there, and Bubba striking up a conversation about what life was like 2000 years ago. Steven stands there astonished stating” 2000 years!? I just got here just a moment ago!”
God exists in the eternal now and Christ has gone to build a place for us. I think the Hell that existed before Christ’s visit upon the Earth may now be different place after he sojourned and preached there.
Revelation describes “death and Hell” themselves being thrown into the Lake of Fire...as though they were some dark negative entities or perhaps tesseract type pocket universes to be dissolved into quantum nothingness! Keeping in mind what Abraham stated about a ‘great gulf fixed” between Hell and “the bosom of Abraham”, the fact that this reality is someday to be thrown into the Lake of Fire kind of messes with ones mind in terms of the time, space and dimension of God’s vast creation!
Peter started sinking when he started doubting. With faith in Jesus anything is possible.
It sounds like you were duped by some teacher or other who reads too much into symbolism while declaring a pox on those who have preached on the realities of Hell for 2000 years!
I don't know but I am sure the thought crosses everyone's mind when a loved one is about to pass on. When I was with my dear Aunt who loved the Lord two days before she passed, I took a different Biblical approach. When we see the scene in Heaven as our Roman FRiends like to quote, I notice all attention and praise is on the Throne of God. So before departing her room, I told her to relax, practice singing praises to Jesus Christ because her main focus and desire will be to gaze upon Him and not this fallen world she just left behind.
Wow!
You pick a verse that’s not even in the Bible to prove a pagan practice?
That takes guts!
Even if it were Canonised it is not good practice to make theology with one scripture, especially since it contradicts others.
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