Posted on 12/16/2013 8:08:08 AM PST by GonzoII
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In his book, Answers to Catholic Claims, A Discussion of Biblical Authority, Protestant Apologist James White claims praying to saints is contrary to Scripture: The Bible strongly condemns communication with the dead. It does not matter if those who died were good or bad, saintly or evil, there is to be no communication between the living and the dead. The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone. Biblical texts like Deut. 18:10-11 and Isaiah 19:3—each of which condemns necromancy—are employed to say “communication with the dead” is condemned absolutely. Actually, what is being condemned in these texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, not praying to saints. The Church has always condemned this that is commonly called necromancy. Mediums attempt to conjure up spirits and manipulate the spiritual realm at will. This is categorically different from Christians asking for the intercession of their brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not “conjure up” or manipulate anything or anyone. True prayer—whether to God or the angels and saints—changes the pray-er, not the pray-ee. If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31: And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem. According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White. FIRST CONTACT There is another point to White’s argument that requires a deeper level of response. Notice, he said, “The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.” This point taken alone would not exclude communicating with the dead in any context. It would only exclude such communication if contact originates from the earth dweller. In one sense, it seems Mr. White, as well as our Protestant friends he represents by his statement, is stuck in an Old Testament mindset. It is true that we do not see Old Covenant faithful initiating prayer to the dearly departed, but this is to be expected because the faithful dead before Christ and the beatific vision afforded by him would not have had the power to either hear or respond to those prayers. Moreover, the Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the after-life that only came with the Revelation of Christ. Jesus Christ introduces a radical development the Old Covenant saints could not have imagined when he clearly initiates the communication with the faithful departed unlike anything we saw in the Old Testament. I say “clearly” because even Protestant Apologist Eric Svendsen seems to see it, though I’m not sure how cognizant he was of the rammifications of this statement he made about the Transfiguration in his book, Evangelical Answers: The transfiguration was an apocalyptic event choreographed directly by the Son of God to give the apostles a glimpse of his eschatological glory… If Jesus “choreographed” it, then he initiated it. Some may say, “Well, he’s God, so he can do that.” Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same. This is precisely what we mean as Catholics when we say we “pray to the saints.” THE BIBLE SAYS SO The New Testament presents to us very plain examples of the faithful on earth initiating communication with the saints in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Chapter 11 gives us what I call the “hall of faith” wherein the lives of many of the Old Testament saints are recounted. Then, the inspired author encourages these to whom he referred earlier as a people who were being persecuted for their faith (10:32-35), to consider that they are “surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,” encouraging them to “run the race” of faith set before them. Then, beginning in 12:18, he encourages these New Covenant faithful by reminding them that their covenant—the New Covenant—is far superior to the Old: For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire … darkness … gloom … and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them… But you have come to… the city of the living God… and to innumerable angels… and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven… and to… God… and to the spirits of just men made perfect… and to Jesus… Notice, in the Old Covenant the faithful approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, the faithful have experienced a radical change for the better. “But you have come to … and to … and to … and to.” In the same way we can initiate prayer and in so doing “come to” God and Jesus, we can also “come to” the angels and “the spirits of just men made perfect.” Those would be the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God. The Book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth: The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14). These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4: And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. And these prayers offered to God through the mediation of the angels are answered as symbolized by “thunder” and “lightning” that are then cast upon the earth through those prayers: Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth; and there were peals of thunder, loud noises, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. The bottom line is this: Both the faithful on earth and our brothers and sisters in heaven (and let’s not forget our “cousins,” the angels) are all acting just as Catholics would expect. Believers on earth are initiating prayers which the saints and angels in heaven are receiving. Is this the necromancy condemned in Deuteronomy and Isaiah? Absolutely not! This is New Testament Christianity. |
And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.
According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White."
Would asking someone who is about to die to “pass on a message” to someone who is already there — qualify as “communicating with the dead?
I ask, because I did ask someone to do that, one time ... :-) ...
It is really easy, but you continue to kick against the pricks...
No command in Scripture to pray to departed believers.
No encouragement in Scripture to pray to departed believers.
No example in Scripture of an Apostle praying to departed believers.
No contemporaneous secular documents that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous Christian documents that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous secular artworks that that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous Christian artworks that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
The verses you post have nothing to do with this pagan practice.
In contrast, all believers are commanded to boldly approach the thrown of God to make their requests known.
In short, you are defending a pagan practice that was added later, instead of accepting every believer has equal access to the throne of grace.
When the Apostles asked Jesus how they should pray, Jesus taught us to pray directly to God Almighty. Not to Angles, the Apostles or Mary, or Saints or icons, or bones, or anyone or anything else.
Given the choice between doing what Jesus taught, and some traditions of man ... I’ll follow Jesus.
Because Jesus was also God.
When a human dies he can’t see or hear anything. He is in a deep dreamless sleep. And will stay like that until the Resurrection.
The lengths some go to defend the indefensible is astounding as this dopey writer accuses the Judge of all as a way to defend his position.
I know there’s the whole “absence of time” aspect,
but as for soul sleep, as you describe -
what do you think about the parable Jesus told of Lazarus, the rich man, Abraham, and telling the man’s still alive brothers to repent lest they end up (aware) in hell like him?
Not according to Luke and the account of Lazarus and the rich man. While stated to be a parable, I believe it to be an account of the state of the dead both the saved and the damned. Once Christ died and preached in hell, “proving he was the Christ” this was also proof that the dead were very much awake and aware. God is, after all God of the living and not of the dead! Christ would not have preached to “sleeping dead”!
Sorry, my friend:
Don’t forget...Christ preached to the dead in hell for the three temporal days and nights he was dead physically in the tomb! The thief on the cross was with Christ in paradise. It doesn’t sound to me like the dead are sleeping.
Too many Near death experiences to mention that point to some active dynamics that occur after death! Many NDE’s seem to be pleasant enough but more than a few recount experiencing being at the precipice of hell when a stated half remembered child hood prayer or a direct cry..”Jesus Save me!” and poof a bright light, and encounter with God and boom the person comes back completely changed and a Christian.
Are there some issues with trusting some NDE’s as real?..no doubt as I’ve read of NDE’s that seem culturally colored by the person’s religious or cultural background and are not supported by any Christian orthodoxy. Satan may well play games as well. Still a lot of smoke occurs when many claim their is no fire!
And would that believer see himself and all other believers as saints equally in the eyes of God, or would he elevate some believers to the status as elite saints, and the rest as simple "laity", instructing the "laity" to pray to the saints for favors and protections?
It is really easy, but you continue to kick against the pricks...
No command in Scripture to pray to departed believers.
No encouragement in Scripture to pray to departed believers.
No example in Scripture of an Apostle praying to departed believers.
No contemporaneous secular documents that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous Christian documents that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous secular artworks that that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous Christian artworks that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
The verses you post have nothing to do with this pagan practice.
In contrast, all believers are commanded to boldly approach the thrown of God to make their requests known.
In short, you are defending a pagan practice that was added later, instead of accepting every believer has equal access to the throne of grace.
We have a winner!
Interestingly, when I first started reading I thought, “yeah, it’s clear we’re not supposed to do it, but you don’t need to start a thread and rub their noses in it”.
Then I continued reading and saw what this really was.
And yes, Jesus had brothers. i.e. Mary did not die a virgin. And no, Mary was not perfect. Yes, she was blessed. God did not choose her because she was blessed. Rather, she was blessed because God chose here. Who wouldn’t be?
A fun study is to look at every single place in the NT where Jesus acknowledges Mary’s existence and see what he has to say.
I suspect that when you die it is like when you are put out for surgery. You are not aware of the passage of time. Even if it is thousands of years, the resurrection will seem instantaneous with your death - whether after this resurrection you meet the second death and are gone for eternity, or you are Christs and spend eternity with him.
I will not give up my petitions to the saints! I know they pay attention. Period.
II Corinthians 5:8 is interesting.
I was just talking about “passing on a message” - through a person that I give it to - and doing so after the person has died.
Thank G-d!
Our minds are stuck on this conveyor belt of time and we cannot escape it. All the confusion about what happens after you die stems from this (probably God imposed) limit on our imaginations.
When you die you leave this space/time continuum. We literally can’t imagine what happens then, thought the Bible gives us some hints. They are necessarily hints and parables because the Holy Spirit is trying to describe a 20 dimensional object to our minds that cannot handle anything more than three dimensions.
what do you think about the parable Jesus told of Lazarus, the rich man, Abraham, and telling the man’s still alive brothers to repent lest they end up (aware) in hell like him?
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