And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.
According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White."
Would asking someone who is about to die to “pass on a message” to someone who is already there — qualify as “communicating with the dead?
I ask, because I did ask someone to do that, one time ... :-) ...
It is really easy, but you continue to kick against the pricks...
No command in Scripture to pray to departed believers.
No encouragement in Scripture to pray to departed believers.
No example in Scripture of an Apostle praying to departed believers.
No contemporaneous secular documents that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous Christian documents that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous secular artworks that that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous Christian artworks that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
The verses you post have nothing to do with this pagan practice.
In contrast, all believers are commanded to boldly approach the thrown of God to make their requests known.
In short, you are defending a pagan practice that was added later, instead of accepting every believer has equal access to the throne of grace.
When the Apostles asked Jesus how they should pray, Jesus taught us to pray directly to God Almighty. Not to Angles, the Apostles or Mary, or Saints or icons, or bones, or anyone or anything else.
Given the choice between doing what Jesus taught, and some traditions of man ... I’ll follow Jesus.
Because Jesus was also God.
When a human dies he can’t see or hear anything. He is in a deep dreamless sleep. And will stay like that until the Resurrection.
The lengths some go to defend the indefensible is astounding as this dopey writer accuses the Judge of all as a way to defend his position.
Interestingly, when I first started reading I thought, “yeah, it’s clear we’re not supposed to do it, but you don’t need to start a thread and rub their noses in it”.
Then I continued reading and saw what this really was.
And yes, Jesus had brothers. i.e. Mary did not die a virgin. And no, Mary was not perfect. Yes, she was blessed. God did not choose her because she was blessed. Rather, she was blessed because God chose here. Who wouldn’t be?
A fun study is to look at every single place in the NT where Jesus acknowledges Mary’s existence and see what he has to say.
I will not give up my petitions to the saints! I know they pay attention. Period.
Thank G-d!
This needs to be repeated..........
If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31:
And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.
According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White
That's a very shaky assumption to build an entire argument on.
At 10 and 4 this year the Saints might be benefiting from prayer.
“If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31:
By the same token in acts 3 when Peter healed the lame man, does that mean any one can do it?
I know that faith can heal but show me a man who can do what the early apostles did.
I believe there is much more we do not know than what we do know even among the most vivid Bible readers that i hesitate in either way take a stand about communicating with the dead.
What i can say is that it is not what the teachings of the Bible is all about.
Many people use a verse or two in the Bible to teach reincarnation and they have just as much evidence as some other teachings such as communicating with dead saints
But again the Bible does not teach reincarnation no more than it teaches the former.
I believe i actually saw an angel one time, but if this was what the teaching of the Bible was about i believe there would be much more about it.
There are a number of things that are incorrect about this interpretation:
1. It is a vision given to his disciples.
Mat 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead."
2. It is a vision of the future Jesus in his glory, as he would appear in the kingdom:
Mat 17:2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.
Compare to Revelation:
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.
Rev 1:14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;
Rev 1:16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
3. It was a vision given to the disciples of the future kingdom, a vision of the kingdom of God after the saints of God are resurrected. Just before the vision, at the end of Mattthew 16:
Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
Next verse (and remember the original scripture does not have chapters or verses so this verse comes immediately afterwards no break.)
Mat 17:1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves;
Mat 17:2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.
In other words, Christ promised that some would not see death until they saw Christ in his kingdom. Some included Peter, James and John. Six days later this prophecy was fulfilled. Christ gave them a vision of the future resurrection in his kingdom.
So Elijah and Moses were still dead. This wasn't Christ talking to dead people. This was a vision of a glorious future time when the Kingdom of God arrives and all of the saints of the God are resurrected.
I think there is nothing wrong to ask Saints or passed on family to pray for you, but IMO I would not pray to Saints since all the answers from prayer comes from God, not Saints.