Posted on 12/16/2013 8:08:08 AM PST by GonzoII
And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.
According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White."
Would asking someone who is about to die to “pass on a message” to someone who is already there — qualify as “communicating with the dead?
I ask, because I did ask someone to do that, one time ... :-) ...
It is really easy, but you continue to kick against the pricks...
No command in Scripture to pray to departed believers.
No encouragement in Scripture to pray to departed believers.
No example in Scripture of an Apostle praying to departed believers.
No contemporaneous secular documents that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous Christian documents that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous secular artworks that that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous Christian artworks that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
The verses you post have nothing to do with this pagan practice.
In contrast, all believers are commanded to boldly approach the thrown of God to make their requests known.
In short, you are defending a pagan practice that was added later, instead of accepting every believer has equal access to the throne of grace.
When the Apostles asked Jesus how they should pray, Jesus taught us to pray directly to God Almighty. Not to Angles, the Apostles or Mary, or Saints or icons, or bones, or anyone or anything else.
Given the choice between doing what Jesus taught, and some traditions of man ... I’ll follow Jesus.
Because Jesus was also God.
When a human dies he can’t see or hear anything. He is in a deep dreamless sleep. And will stay like that until the Resurrection.
The lengths some go to defend the indefensible is astounding as this dopey writer accuses the Judge of all as a way to defend his position.
I know there’s the whole “absence of time” aspect,
but as for soul sleep, as you describe -
what do you think about the parable Jesus told of Lazarus, the rich man, Abraham, and telling the man’s still alive brothers to repent lest they end up (aware) in hell like him?
Not according to Luke and the account of Lazarus and the rich man. While stated to be a parable, I believe it to be an account of the state of the dead both the saved and the damned. Once Christ died and preached in hell, “proving he was the Christ” this was also proof that the dead were very much awake and aware. God is, after all God of the living and not of the dead! Christ would not have preached to “sleeping dead”!
Sorry, my friend:
Don’t forget...Christ preached to the dead in hell for the three temporal days and nights he was dead physically in the tomb! The thief on the cross was with Christ in paradise. It doesn’t sound to me like the dead are sleeping.
Too many Near death experiences to mention that point to some active dynamics that occur after death! Many NDE’s seem to be pleasant enough but more than a few recount experiencing being at the precipice of hell when a stated half remembered child hood prayer or a direct cry..”Jesus Save me!” and poof a bright light, and encounter with God and boom the person comes back completely changed and a Christian.
Are there some issues with trusting some NDE’s as real?..no doubt as I’ve read of NDE’s that seem culturally colored by the person’s religious or cultural background and are not supported by any Christian orthodoxy. Satan may well play games as well. Still a lot of smoke occurs when many claim their is no fire!
And would that believer see himself and all other believers as saints equally in the eyes of God, or would he elevate some believers to the status as elite saints, and the rest as simple "laity", instructing the "laity" to pray to the saints for favors and protections?
It is really easy, but you continue to kick against the pricks...
No command in Scripture to pray to departed believers.
No encouragement in Scripture to pray to departed believers.
No example in Scripture of an Apostle praying to departed believers.
No contemporaneous secular documents that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous Christian documents that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous secular artworks that that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
No contemporaneous Christian artworks that indicate this was a practice in the first +100 years of Christianity.
The verses you post have nothing to do with this pagan practice.
In contrast, all believers are commanded to boldly approach the thrown of God to make their requests known.
In short, you are defending a pagan practice that was added later, instead of accepting every believer has equal access to the throne of grace.
We have a winner!
Interestingly, when I first started reading I thought, “yeah, it’s clear we’re not supposed to do it, but you don’t need to start a thread and rub their noses in it”.
Then I continued reading and saw what this really was.
And yes, Jesus had brothers. i.e. Mary did not die a virgin. And no, Mary was not perfect. Yes, she was blessed. God did not choose her because she was blessed. Rather, she was blessed because God chose here. Who wouldn’t be?
A fun study is to look at every single place in the NT where Jesus acknowledges Mary’s existence and see what he has to say.
I suspect that when you die it is like when you are put out for surgery. You are not aware of the passage of time. Even if it is thousands of years, the resurrection will seem instantaneous with your death - whether after this resurrection you meet the second death and are gone for eternity, or you are Christs and spend eternity with him.
I will not give up my petitions to the saints! I know they pay attention. Period.
II Corinthians 5:8 is interesting.
I was just talking about “passing on a message” - through a person that I give it to - and doing so after the person has died.
Thank G-d!
Our minds are stuck on this conveyor belt of time and we cannot escape it. All the confusion about what happens after you die stems from this (probably God imposed) limit on our imaginations.
When you die you leave this space/time continuum. We literally can’t imagine what happens then, thought the Bible gives us some hints. They are necessarily hints and parables because the Holy Spirit is trying to describe a 20 dimensional object to our minds that cannot handle anything more than three dimensions.
what do you think about the parable Jesus told of Lazarus, the rich man, Abraham, and telling the man’s still alive brothers to repent lest they end up (aware) in hell like him?
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