You're Probably Not Saved, Yet.

Beyond Today ^ | 2013 | Various

[DouglasKC]

How do you know you're saved?

Imagine you arrive at a most important banquet that's hosted by Christ Himself. After all--you're a Christian. Picture coming to His home and walking right up to the door. Perhaps you're a little surprised that the door is closed and you're shut outside. But not to be deterred, you knock and knock. No response, no reaction. So you call out, "Jesus open the door, Lord it's me." Still, no response, no reaction. At long last, you hear Jesus' voice and He says, "I never knew you!" What a devastating and shocking situation in which to find yourself.

[DouglasKC]

You ask, “Do they need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?” I’d toss back to you, in what way os that acheived given that Christ, at His ascension, said that He (all persons of Trinity) wouold be with us untill the end of the age? The Holy Spirit has been poured out on God’s creation. How is it mankinf “needs” such a indwelling when it exists. (Kinda like water...do you need to hydrate to stay alive and if you deny that water “is” what is the physical result?)

I think we're worlds apart on this. Scripture teaches in it's totality that yes, the holy spirit of God is poured out, but also that Christians, to become Christian, receive that spirit inwardly. That's what makes us Christians.

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Scripture speaks again and again about the indwelling and how it's not automatic, but comes after repentance and baptism.

[cuban leaf]

Christ told us to, “Love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and all your mind.” ! There ! will you find eternal life.

---

What I find interesting about that concept is where my mind goes in my day to day living. One day, a couple months after I bought my Scion FRS, I was with my wife coming onto a cloverleaf offramp. I was thinking it might be fun to do a little drifting in the wet, but some guy in an old pickup gets in front of me and does like 35 all the way around.

The very first thought that hit my mind was that the Lord must have been protecting me from myself. And we had a laugh because that is what my wife was thinking too. He is ALWAYS there. Even the “bad” stuff is good for one reason or another.

[American Constitutionalist]

Yup, griding that old " WORKS " salvation axe aren't you ?
You see that's the law preachers and Arminians how shall I say ? Stumbling block " because they never see far passed their self righteousness to see that it actually means, working faith, not faith based on works, or salvation based on works.
You know, work ? as in physically exercise like taking the handle of a water pump and actually move it to get the water out.
Hey we can go around in circles in a revolving door for hours but I degress.
What is James saying here ?
Put your money where your month is instead of blabbing your month off.
If you read the whole chapter then you will get the crux and context in which James was alluding to.
He's taking about phonies, you know ? the same one's who are the religious Pharisees.
In mode of rebuke James was givng a rebuke like Paul gave to Peter when Peter sat with only the Jews when eating.
Read the first few verse.
James rebukes those who give the best seats to the rich but tell the poor to sit in a more harsh setting.
He goes onto talks about if a brother or sister comes to you in destitude and ask for help ? and they only say ? go in peace and be warmed ? and you don't give a crap about that person ? where is your faith ? where is the love of Christ in your heart ?

[Cletus.D.Yokel]

To develop the thought:

The deep and abiding love I have for my wife does not save me. (Caveat, she is deemed righteous in childbirth of my XPian children...but, that is another discussion).
The deep and abiding love for my family does not save me.
The deep and abiding love that I have for my fellow congregation members and my pastor does not save me.
The deep and abiding love for my fellow travelers here on Earth (second table of the law) does not save me.

When I come to grips with the command, “Love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and all your mind.” Therein I find eternal life.

And “and this is not from myself , it is the ^^gift^^ of God”

[American Constitutionalist]

You see ? you totally slip over that verse I gave you and give me a totally different verse that the Armainains hold as their sacred James chapter 2 doctrine.
You see ? once again, the law preachers and teachers totally avoid that verse because they have no way in their man made doctrine to explain it away.

[American Constitutionalist]

" The problems with scribe and Pharisees is that they did NOT believe in Christ. At all. They had no faith. They thought that good works ALONE, without Christ, were good enough for salvation. That's not even close to being true. "

WOW !! perhaps your finally seeing the light, the truth.

WORKS can't save you, or keep you, so then ? there has to be something else to salvation.

[redleghunter]

You know that is one of the most ignored teachings in the entire Bible. When you look at the New Testament, they were immersed in water after they repented. They were brought up out of the water, symbolically dying with Christ. And then they would have hands laid on them by the ministry in order to receive the Holy Spirit. And that is actually one of the most ignored teachings in all the Bible and it is one of the reasons why God isn't working as powerful in our lives as we want.

The piece has wonderful and very valid points on obedience. Above is where they lost me. I wonder what their opinion is on Cornelius and household being filled with the Holy Spirit prior to Peter proclaiming that all should be baptized (Acts 10):

Acts 10:

43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

[Cletus.D.Yokel]

:: that Christians, to become Christian, receive that spirit inwardly. That’s what makes us Christians ::

Your recent post (quoted) hinges on the aspect of “become Christian”. To follow through on you position, that is “completed” by a ^reception of the Spirit inwardly^.

To avoid the typical “where do you find that terminology or string-of-words in Scripture (avoiding eisegesis), I’ll simply ask, “in what way is the Holy Spirit made to dwell” in man (provided you agree that Christ died as the propitiation of mankind’s sin on the Cross).

[Cletus.D.Yokel]

Oh, and Doug, I’m overlooking theyour use of the most childish and offensive word ever devised in the English language...

:: Scripture teaches in it’s totality that yes, the holy spirit of God is poured out, ^^but^^ also that Christians... ::

...but...!

[redleghunter]

What? Another prophet/pope? I guess there are three now.

[redleghunter]

Armstrong proclaimed that behind world events during his lifespan loomed various Biblical prophecies, and that he was called by God as an 'Apostle' and end-time 'Elijah' to proclaim the Gospel of God's Kingdom to the World[5] before the return of Jesus Christ.

Another self-proclaimed prophet? Heard this deal before...

[American Constitutionalist]

" In most religions (or really any belief system) there are self appointed gatekeepers. Right now the gatekeepers for mainstream Christianity have bought in (for the most part) that there is no sin and that anyone is saved if they just "believe". That's why mainstream Christianity is corrupted....i.e. homosexual and lesbian behavior is celebrated as are a host of other sins that are clearly and absolutely called sin in scripture. "

Well now, we finally agree on something.

I agree in that regard that there are those who are so moon bat minded that think that we will be all saved and that there is no sin...... yes, there is sin... that's why Christ the Messiah came.
What I disagree with the law preachers and Armainains with is that some how ? we can be " perfect " in our lives in the case of sinning.
Or ? that if you commit a sin after you get saved you lose your salvation, God is not a Indian giver... it's called eternal salvation or a everlasting convenient for a reason.
Sorry, the only person who didn't have the sin nature was Christ.
Paul spoke about this struggle in Romans chapter 7.
Salvation didn't deliver us from our flesh and sin nature, what it did was it made a way for us to be reconciled to God and saved from the justice of the penalty of that sin so as long as you trust, believe in Christ in whom took out punishment in our stead.

[Lee N. Field]

Calvinst, sounds like.

Not remotely.

"United Church of God".

[redleghunter]

The scripture you posted clearly says that those who were turned away worked "lawlessness". This is and can only be a willfull disobedience to the laws of God. In other words, these folks claimed Christ and believed they were following Christ but their beliefs and actions told Christ otherwise

Your statement would evoke the term 'unbelief' for such individuals.

[DouglasKC]

Seriously, if God asked you that question today...how would you answer it? I mean to say, isn’t that really what God wants of us?: “You have been found justified in your sins for the sake of my crucified Son...on what do presume to come into Heaven?” Do you answer Him with a litany of good works? A recitation of the times you have “decided His Son is part of your life? The day you remembered you were “baptized...for the last time...and this one “took”?

No, I say that the blood of Christ saved me and that I was so grateful for his love and intervention that I promised to uphold my covenant to put the mind of Christ first and foremost in my life, to subvert my will and let the will of Christ reign. And though I did it imperfectly, I'm all the better for obeying.

Taken to the logical extreme someone could just as well say "well yeah, I believed you saved me, but I'm not going to let you live through me. No way. I'm going to keep sinning and doing my own thing and make a mockery of your sacrifice."

Hbr 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Yeah we stumble and yeah we fall but God expects us to turn from sin.

[DouglasKC]

Sounds like someone is making judgment, and God said not to do that.

Who?

[DouglasKC]

We’re on exactly the same page with this one. We are redundant. Clearly, one of us must die. Out of curiosity, where do you live?

There can only be one....

[redleghunter]

Your tagline...Love it:)

[American Constitutionalist]

I am well acquainted with human nature and am to jaded to change now.
Have had to many bad experiences with people in the church and outside the church.
I trust a dog more than I trust humans.

[DouglasKC]

WOW !! perhaps your finally seeing the light, the truth. WORKS can't save you, or keep you, so then ? there has to be something else to salvation.

lol...I can guarantee that my beliefs have not changed in the 2 hours (?) that this thread has been active. What usually happens is that people incorrectly assume a position whenever anyone advocates obeying the Lord. They assume that it must mean we think we're saved by works. But it's not.