Notre Dame to host Catholic-Mormon conference

Notre Dame News ^ | November 27th, 2013 | Michael O. Garvey

[Elsie]

Please explain your mind reading skills and techniques.

My technique is to find actual data published by the great LDS, Inc. and re-post it here.

Others get to read it and make up their minds.

[Elsie]

I have been a Mormon for 30 years. How do you have the slightest clue what a Mormon view point is? Especially when you're told you're wrong and corrected, you won't accept the correction.

Physician... heal thyself!

[Elsie]

Especially when you're told you're wrong and corrected, you won't accept the correction.

That because your 'telling' is incorrect.

We actually SHOW everyone where you are wrong!

[StormPrepper]

"What additional points would you like to hear my thoughts on?"

How about the strongest points of my argument for starters.

Luke 2:52
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

If Jesus was perfected from the beginning, how could he increase in favour[sic] with God and Wisdom?

"that they start with a false concept about the Lord Jesus Christ and then interpret Scripture through those "colored glasses""

The irony. I can show you your "colored glasses". Was there point in the life of Jesus when He was on the earth, that He didn't have all wisdom?

I posted the answer in Luke 2. But you won't bring yourself to admit the truth.

Also, I don't have to make excuses for Rev 11 either.

[Tennessee Nana]

I have been a Mormon for 30 years
________________________________________

Kid youre a piker...

Most of us have either been BIC or learned about Mormonism 50+ years ago...

In my own case I learned about Joey Smith and his Mohammad yearnings 45 years ago...

and I wouldnt boast about a close relationship to the criminal atheist and child rapist Joey Smith if I was you...

[Colofornian]

And you compare that with some ambiguous writing that shows up almost 400 years after the Apostles. Paul was authorized by the Lord face to face. 400 years after Paul men were authorized by other men only. There's no comparison.

Maybe you're right.

After all, McConkie called himself an "apostle." But the Lord NEVER authorized him face to face...and that was 1900+ years later! And, given that so many Mormons disagree with the Mormon "apostle," I guess that's even worse than "ambiguous writing!"

You have never been a Mormon. I have been a Mormon for 30 years. How do you have the slightest clue what a Mormon view point is?

Perhaps you're now 2-for-2 here. After all, Mormon leaders/general authorities tend to be horrible communicators. How could they possibly convey the Mormon worldview to the world? (They should just give it up & tell their mishies to stay home!)

It is not published by the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Period.

(It was)

[boatbums]

How many new “books of mormon” have mormons put out now that change the wording to be more “convenient” ??? about 4,000 changes... oh dear

Interesting. You'd think that in all the plagiarisms JS did with the KJV of the Bible, he could've at least conveniently corrected the wording somewhat. He used seventeenth century English two centuries later!

[boatbums]

1 Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the voice of him who wells on high, and whose eyes are upon all men; yea, verily I say: Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.

See, that does nothing for me. Whoever this is who "wells" on high can't be THE ONE Almighty God. As for the rest of the pseudo-Divine sounding words, it says nothing that the Bible doesn't say already and with a WHOLE lot more authority. For example:

Psalm 113
Praise the Lord.

Praise the Lord, you his servants; praise the name of the Lord.

Let the name of the Lord be praised, both now and forevermore.

From the rising of the sun to the place where it sets, the name of the Lord is to be praised.

The Lord is exalted over all the nations, his glory above the heavens.

Who is like the Lord our God, the One who sits enthroned on high, who stoops down to look on the heavens and the earth?

He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes, with the princes of his people.

He settles the childless woman in her home as a happy mother of children.

Praise the Lord.

Or, when the Apostle Paul addressed the people of Athens, he said, as recorded in Acts 17:22-31

Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Now THAT speaks to my heart!

[boatbums]

Paul was a real Apostle of Jesus Christ, who prophesied, and was directed by the Lord Himself. And you compare that with some ambiguous writing that shows up almost 400 years after the Apostles. Paul was authorized by the Lord face to face. 400 years after Paul men were authorized by other men only. There's no comparison.

I agree with you that what church "leaders" put together to summarize what the Christian faith's basic doctrines were four hundred years after the last Apostle died does not qualify as authoritative as Holy Scripture, but neither do writings eighteen-hundred years later by some guy who claimed to have a vision - a con-man, womanizer, adulterer and scofflaw from the law. Where is Joseph Smith, Jr.'s authority? Why are his contentions - some that blatantly contradict the Bible - to be held in the same esteem as Divinely-inspired Scripture? By what authority do your "Apostles" claim to hold authority over all of Christendom? Every statement of the "Apostles' Creed" can be proved by Scripture, though it is not meant to be an exhaustive list of the tenets of the Christian faith. Nonetheless, it's early use by believers and early church fathers attest to its genuineness and purpose to the early believers. Can the same be said for Mormonism's creeds or doctrinal statements?

[Colofornian]

I agree with you that what church "leaders" put together to summarize what the Christian faith's basic doctrines were four hundred years after the last Apostle died does not qualify as authoritative as Holy Scripture, but neither do writings eighteen-hundred years later by some guy who claimed to have a vision - a con-man, womanizer, adulterer and scofflaw from the law. [boatbums]

Well the Mormon "counterpart" to Christian creeds is their "Articles of Faith" -- drafted as an 1842 letter-to-the-editor (to Long John Wentworth of the Chicago Democrat).

(Oh, yeah, sure, Stormprepper...tell us all about how the Lord "inspires" letters to the editor & then deems them as "scripture" equivalent!)

Comparing the Mormon Articles of Faith to the Apostles Creed: A

Furthermore, compare this Mormon creedal statement to the Apostles Creed.

Take the 11th Mormon Article of Faith:

“We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

Here, Stormprepper -- in post #126 -- was complaining that The Apostles Creed is: "...with out power...it's weak and pitiful. It doesn't advance our understanding of our relationship to God."

Yet, the Mormon 11th article of faith is totally void of understanding that men worshiping a false idea of God isn't praised & sanctioned by God -- as the 11th article attempts to do!

I mean, What? Mormons believe that smoking peyote or something more -- if done under a religious conviction -- is a "privilege" unto man and that God sanctions people "worship[ing] how...or what...may"??? Does that include Manasseh & others engaging in child sacrifice in the OT? Or what about prostitutes @ some of the pagan temples? This is a god who sanctions every manner of "worshiping" even other gods to the point He's willing to build an "article of faith" around it? Wow! (Mormons are pretty liberal, after all) The next time a head-hunting, head-shrinker or voodoo FR thread comes up, you Mormons be sure to peep up and "bless" that with your "article of faith" endorsement, too. For some reason, the Mormon god contrasts the God of the Bible:

"You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods." (Deut. 12:31)

Comparing the Mormon Articles of Faith to the Apostles Creed: B

Hence, whereas we can find no equivalent statement to the 11th article of faith (along with many of the OTHER Mormon 'articles') within the Bible (or even in the other three books Lds regard as "scripture") -- it yields an obvious conclusion: It's not even a good summation of anything taught in the scriptures!

Now compare that to "the phrase 'descendit ad inferos' ('he descended into hell') [which] echoes Ephesians 4:9, "κατέβη εἰς τὰ κατώτερα μέρη τῆς γῆς" ('he descended into the lower, earthly regions')."
Source: Apostles' Creed

IoW, various parts of the Apostles' Creed encapsulates the Bible!

[Colofornian]

My last post:
Well the Mormon "counterpart" to Christian creeds is their "Articles of Faith" -- drafted as an 1842 letter-to-the-editor (to Long John Wentworth of the Chicago Democrat). (Oh, yeah, sure, Stormprepper...tell us all about how the Lord "inspires" letters to the editor & then deems them as "scripture" equivalent!)

Only in Mormonism do we find what was originally published by DEMOCRATS is deemed "sacred Scripture" or the equivalent thereof!!!!

[boatbums]

How about the strongest points of my argument for starters. Luke 2:52 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. If Jesus was perfected from the beginning, how could he increase in favour[sic] with God and Wisdom?

That was your strongest point? Seriously? Perhaps it is a matter of semantics. When you use the term "perfected" - as the passage in Luke 13 that you cited when Jesus was talking about his goals and purpose for the actions he took - you seem to take this to mean MORE than Jesus' finishing his work and apply it to his "perfection" or "sinlessness". You said that he had to "work out his own salvation" in order to rejoin the Father in Heaven. This view comes from that basic LDS premise that Jesus was only a man who had to work his way to Divinity - just like Mormonism believes men within the LDS system can also attain their own godhood. Those are the LDS-colored glasses I spoke of. You start out on the wrong footing so it's no wonder that anything after that will also be incorrect.

However, if you start with - like I said - the Scriptural understanding that there is NO OTHER GOD but Jehovah (the I AM) and that He always was and always will be, that Jesus is Almighty God in the flesh (incarnate), that Almighty God is the only Savior, that Jesus took on human flesh so that he could be the sinless sacrifice for our sins, then you can understand that the Son of God, Jesus, was both Divine and human. The Eternal Father has an Eternal Son. There is a hierarchy within the Godhead - not one of superiority but of purpose. That is how Jesus could say that he came to do his Father's will and also how the Holy Spirit, also God, was sent by the Father and the Son to be the Comforter and to lead us into all truth.

The verse from Luke 2 was speaking of the Son of God (Jesus) who came into this world as a little baby. He learned obedience from the things he suffered (Hebrews 5:8). He, being found in appearance as a man, humbled himself by becoming obedient to death -- even death on a cross! (Philippians 2:8). Jesus became OUR high priest, and, as a partaker of our nature (while continuing to be God), he could become our Kinsman Redeemer, and make propitiation for our sins by His death, burial and resurrection. The Gill's Exposition of the Bible has this to say about that passage in Hebrews 5:8-

Though he were a Son,.... The Son of God, as the Vulgate Latin version reads; not by creation, nor by adoption, nor by office, but by nature, being the only begotten of the Father, having the same nature and perfections with him: yet learned he obedience; not to his parents, or civil magistrates, though that is true; nor merely to the precepts of the law, which he did; but unto death: through sufferings he became obedient to death, even the death of the cross: and this he learnt; not that he was ignorant of the nature of it; nor was he destitute of an obedient disposition to it; but the meaning is, he had an experience of it, and effected it; and which was voluntary, and done in our room and stead; and is the rule and the measure of our righteousness before God: and this he learned, by the things which he suffered; from men, from devils, and from the justice of God. Christ's sonship did not exempt him from obedience and sufferings; this shows the dignity of Christ's person, that he is the Son of God, not as Mediator, for as such he is a servant; and it would be no wonder that he should learn obedience as a servant; and this shows also the great humility and condescension of Christ in obeying and suffering for us; though so great a person; and likewise the vile nature of sin, and the strictness of divine justice: and we may learn from hence, not to expect to be exempted from sufferings on account of sonship; nor to conclude we are not sons, because we suffer; and that afflictions are instructive, and by them experience is learned.

I agree with this and hope this helps to answer your questions. Jesus was always obedient to the Father's will and he learned through experience as he grew and matured how to be human, yet always retaining his Divine nature. He had to humble himself to become a man, but he did it so that we could be saved through him. I have no fear of the truth, do you?

[StormPrepper]

"Maybe you're right."

"After all, McConkie called himself an "apostle." But the Lord NEVER authorized him face to face...and that was 1900+ years later!"

Are honestly going to claim to have some kind of clairvoyance that allows you see every moment of everyone's life?

"How could they possibly convey the Mormon worldview to the world?"

And yet it is continuously going out to the whole world. No unhallowed hand can stop it. The true Church of Jesus Christ is in almost every country now. And through media, through the internet, the message is going out to the whole world.

[Colofornian]

And yet it is continuously going out to the whole world. No unhallowed hand can stop it. The true Church of Jesus Christ is in almost every country now. And through media, through the internet, the message is going out to the whole world.

(You're the one who claimed no non-Mormon could possibly understand the Mormon worldview...so I guess all that explains why so much Mishie gab is fallin' on deaf ears...)

[StormPrepper]

"I agree with you that what church "leaders" put together to summarize what the Christian faith's basic doctrines were four hundred years after the last Apostle died does not qualify as authoritative as Holy Scripture"

I would like to ask you a question. Did God compile the Bible? Not the writings in the Bible, but the list of writings contained in the Bible. In other words, did God choose which writings would be in the Bible?

[Colofornian]

[To Boatbums]:

How about the strongest points of my argument for starters. Luke 2:52 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. If Jesus was perfected from the beginning, how could he increase in favour[sic] with God and Wisdom?

To hear-tell Stormie's view of this passage, he woulda thought that the diapered Jesus should have grabbed the nearest pulpit and proceeded to give his parents lectures on parenting.

Have you not read Phillippians 2?

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, e humbled himself

The Son of God "made Himself" nothing; he took on a servant's posture -- being made in human likeness; he humbled Himself.

And when Jesus prayed to His Father in John 17, He wasn't simply uttering words that any person could utter because of some so-called notion of Mormon pre-existence: 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Glory in the Bible means weighty...a similar thing we accord to say a Supreme Court whose made a weighty judgment. It conveys loftiness; majesty. Jesus was referencing a unique glory that only He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit shared.

And Mormons reduce it by attempting to say that "Oh, that's just something we all had in the pre-existence." (Much in the same way Mormon theology reduces Heavenly Father's sovereign Almighty uniqueness when it claims man is just as eternal past as Heavenly Father is)

[StormPrepper]

That was your strongest point? Seriously? Perhaps it is a matter of semantics. When you use the term "perfected" - as the passage in Luke 13

It's a strong point because it highlights the irrational and convoluted understanding of modern "Christianity" about the nature of God.

You wrote a whole page of logical gymnastics to try to explain away the term "perfected" when it's applied to Jesus. You can't just give a straight clear simple answer because you don't know it or can't because of the implications.

1. God the Father has a body of flesh and bone.
2. Jesus is His only begotten Son and also has a body of flesh and bone.
3. The Holy Ghost is a spirit.
This constitutes the God Head.

1. Jesus was born as all men are born, through a human mortal mother.
2. Jesus had to learn and grow as all people do.
3. Jesus experienced trials and temptations just like men so that He would be able to understand what all men experience.
4. Jesus had to obey all the laws of His Father just like all men are commanded to do.
5. Jesus lead a sinless "perfect" life.
6. Jesus was "perfected", meaning completely perfect, when He was resurrected and took up His glorified body.

Do you think the Prophets spoken of in Rev 11 are going to be quoting "The Gill's Exposition of the Bible"?

If you reject these two prophets as prophets will you still be allowed into heaven?

[StormPrepper]

"(You're the one who claimed no non-Mormon could possibly understand the Mormon worldview."

Yes. It is possible to understand the Mormon worldview, thank you for pointing it out. This why there are so many converts every year.

Obviously we're getting better results than Noah did. And better than Abraham did at Sodom. Not as good as Jonah however.

[Tennessee Nana]

The true Church of Jesus Christ is in almost every country now.
____________________________________

Well kid, the Church, the Bride of Christ, which the LORD Jesus Christ who is God built 2000 years ago is in EVERY country...

but that lying false religion mormonism that was invented by the child rapist Joey Smith less than 200 years ago...well countries are banning those idiot pagans...

and while Christianity was in South Africa starting with Phillip...2000 years ago..

The Mormons didnt even bother to go there unril about 30 years ago...

in fact Phillip was instructed by God to preach the Gospel to the Ethiopian...a black man...

Jesus left His Heaven and came to Earth an took on flesh as a human baby to die for EVERYONE...male, female, black, white, Greek and Jew...

so that everyone can be saved if they repented of their sins and accet Jesus as LORD and Savior....

OTOH the weak useless mormon gods were and are racists and sexists and bigots...and cannot save anyone..

Hello ???

That’s not the God of the Bible...

you really need to buy yourself a Bible and read up about the LORD Jesus Christ and while He came to Earth ...

[Tennessee Nana]

Yes. It is possible to understand the Mormon worldview
________________________________________

Mormonism is modeled on Islam...

Mohammad or the sword

Joey Smith or the sword...

world domination, terrorism, tyranny, kill everyone who disagrees..

but that is not God...