Posted on 11/21/2013 11:02:12 AM PST by redleghunter
Paul calls for an examination in another passage and I want you to notice this. It's the last chapter of II Corinthians, Chapter 13, and verse 5, I want you to note what it says, Il Corinthians 13:5, just the first sentence, "'Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; (prove it, is what he's saying) prove yourselves." You say to someone "are you a Christian?" 'Yes.' What do you base that on? 'Well so many years ago I made a decision.' That means nothing. The Bible never verifies anybodies salvation on the basis of the past, It's always on the basis of the present, And if you don't have the evident proof of real salvation in your life now, there's a very real possibility you're not a Christian at all, no matter what happened in the past. So examine yourself, to se whether you are in the faith prove yourself. You say John' how do do that? How do I know if I'm really a Christian? I believe! (Maybe you've even been baptized.) I go to church, I, think I'm a Christian.' Look with me Matthew Chapter 5 and let's find out. When Jesus had arrived on the scene, the Jews had already decided what right-living was all about. They had already built their own code. They had already developed their own system, and they had it pretty cu and dried and pretty well laid out that this is what it was to be holy, and it was all external, it was all self-righteousness and works, and Jesus came and shattered that thing and He said I want to give you a new standard for living.
(Excerpt) Read more at gty.org ...
This is absolutely and perfectly correct! But then, wouldn't it be correct to assume that one can gauge one's walk with Messiah by how closely one is conformed to Him, and thus by how closely we conform to the Torah, which is what YHWH has wanted for us all along, and what Yeshua came to show us by example?
It is not that we have license but when we fail, and we all do, we have an advocate with the Father...Our sin is not counted against us...Jesus however will give us a quick kick in the hind end from time to time...
Can we sin willfully and still be a Christian??? Yes...We ALL do whether we will admit it or not...
Sure, which is why one needs something to meter with... to measure by... How does one know he is being obedient to his master? We are all bought with a price - how do we serve, and how do we know we are doing a proper job? John can tell you....
One might notice that there isn't a Christian within the context...It is Jesus teaching Jews... I believe since the context is the Kingdom of Heaven, it is speaking of the Kingdom that was offered to the Jewish audience right there who were under the law but ultimately rejected Jesus as the Messiah...
I would submit your own discipleship should stand in the way of that statement. There is no more Jew or Greek... No male or female ... No slave and master... We are all bought with a price, and we are all in service to the Master, who purchased us. In that, the words written in red are direct instruction. What He said and did is to be emulated and enacted by those who follow Him. His example is paramount.
Prophetically, it applies to the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ on Earth...AFTER the Rapture of the church...The church is gone, the Wedding has taken place and those in the Kingdom with it's Head in Jerusalem are those who come out of the Great Tribulation, who, again, will be under Faith and works/the law... As the scriptures here show, they will again be under the authority of the Torah...And during that thousand year reign, every jot and tittle of the law will be fulfilled, literally...
Doesn't it seem odd that the Torah, revealed from the beginning of Creation, should suddenly be set aside and then brought back again? Does the Master desire a lawless bride? Surely not! His bride will honor Him in obedience, and keep the laws of His Father's House, even as He does Himself! A wife obeys her husband because she loves Him.
And the passage we are looking at (Mat 5:17...) directly speaks against your statement - Yeshua plainly says that every Jot and tittle is in place until heaven and earth pass away, and all is fulfilled. Are heaven and earth still here? YES. Is all fulfilled? NO.
Furthermore, We reign and judge with Him, right? We are with Him always after the rapture, yes? Where is He then? Taking back the earth and establishing the Kingdom How can it be that we (who don't have the first clue about the law) are the ones who help establish Torah in the whole earth?
Who is it that Yeshua condemns for practicing lawlessness (torah-lessness)? Those who cast out demons in His name? By what standard is He judging?
Do you see that the mechanism of it cannot work with the logic applied by most of Christendom?
As for vs. 20, my righteousness as a Christian does exceed that of the scribes and pharisees because I have the righteousness of Jesus who fulfilled the law...But that's a scary thought for those going thru the Tribulation...
"I don't have to keep the Law cuz my Jesus did it for me!" No offense, brother, but that ain't gonna cut it. The Master said to do and teach the Torah. Whether you are slave, disciple, or wife, obedience is the calling. He kept the law in order to be eligible to take our hit - but that doesn't mean we don't have to try.
I dont' think any Christians disregard the Torah...That where we learned what sin was amongst many other things...It's just that we are not under the penalty of the law when we fail...
Well, that wasn't my experience until about a decade ago... and in my ongoing experience, I would submit that most Christians I come in contact with are absolutely ignorant of the Torah. Nobody lives it, nobody knows it. Keep an open mind and keep reading the RF in that light. You will find very little argued from the Torah, ever.
With that I agree...Catholics sin so little they have only to go to confession once a year...Can you imagine??? Taking the Ten Commandments out of our schools was one of the worst things that could happen to Christianity...What should be black and white is now a shade of gray...
Think of that the other way around... the BIG 10 are great, but think of what we would be if the whole Torah were observed like we used to observe the BIG 10... Because like the BIG 10 are the elaboration of the BIG 2, the rest of Torah is the elaboration of the BIG 10...
While that historically can be true, I believe it can and should be applied to all scripture since I believe the bible was not written for those only back in the first Century and before... There is plenty of scripture written yet for the future...
I am not saying the NT is not inspired, but I am saying it's definitions, norms, and references all derive from the Torah, as they must. By the very nature of the thing, everything has to be passed through the Torah. That severely limits interpretation, and interpretation is why there is disagreement.
One must look past the Greek 'baptism' and see Mikvah.
A mikvah is performed to ritually cleanse oneself:
A mikvah is performed to adopt a gentile into national Israel.
A mikvah is performed when one enters into the discipleship of a rabbi.
A mikvah is performed in order to enter the Temple grounds.
A mikvah is performed in the ordination of a priest.
A mikvah is performed at the initiation of a life changing vow or ministry.
We are not Jews and are not to presume we have replaced the nation of Israel.
The thing with Paul is his extraordinary attention toward living beyond the law. Not without the law, but rather beyond it.
Perhaps the best way to explain him is in this analogy:
We are all under the law of the United States Constitution. That law is there to protect citizens, but by and large, all law is written FOR criminals - The reason we have laws against murder and rape is because there are criminals and the law provides authority to prosecute those criminals in the protection of the citizen.
Paul writes mile after mile about how a citizen is not affected by the law, because the citizen is *not* a criminal. While some of us (myself for sure) have tasted justice delivered against us by the law of the United States, for the most part, we enjoy the laws because we are good citizens - They benefit us because we live according to their standard, and we are not cursed by them because we are not criminals.
Because we have been given clemency, does that mean we are free to break the law? Of course not! But by being good citizens, given another chance, by abiding in the law, we establish the justice of it! Being found capable of flying right once granted mercy! Therein one lives 'beyond' the law.
If one sees difference in the principles laid down by Yeshua, Peter, Paul, John, etc. one must needfully be interpreting things wrongly... and it is time for another look:
The Torah is forever.
Yeshua cannot have changed (add to or taken from) the Torah.
Yeshua said to do and teach the Torah.
The disciples cannot change (add to or take from) the words of their Master.
With those principle things established, interpretation becomes very limited.
Stop trying to put people back under the law and Torah. We are in the dispensation of grace.
You are not implying the churches Paul planted did not baptize?
I think we have revisited Acts chapter 2 quite a few times. There is a long sermon/appeal before the cry to baptize. Similar to what we see in Acts 10 with the first Gentiles.
Seeing as this is being asked and the same assertions are still being made that "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus" is contrary to what Paul preached, that of repentance and faith and which is thus confessed, then it is apparent that what i wrote had been ignored. Which is has been and yet which i have reiterated many times, and i should not have to do so again.
Simply put, what you do is driven by what you believe, and to believe in any moral being signifies a change of heart, thus believing on the Lord Jesus is an act of repentance, from unbelief to faith, and toward what faith in the Jesus Christ the righteous entails.
Therefore the call to believe is a call to repentant faith, and the call to repent is a fall to effectually believe, and to preach "repent and believe" is simply a reinforcement of the call to repentant faith.
Thus Paul, which is set forth as being contrary to Christ and Peter because they both preached repentance in order to be saved, declared that his message to both Jews and Gentiles was "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ," "that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God," who "commandeth all men every where to repent" as conditions for salvation. (Acts 14:15; 17:30; 20:21)
It is faith that appropriates justification, but such faith is both repentant and is one that is confessed, and thus Paul again teaches,
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:10) which signifies salvation, thus Paul's words in Rm. 10:10
And as there is not real essential difference btwn moving your tongue (or even neurons in your brain) in confessing the Lord Jesus, and moving your legs in confessing the Lord in baptism, as both are responses, then that call to repent and be baptized is a call to faith, to call upon the Lord in faith to save you.
In contrast is Catholicism's baptismal regeneration in which the act itself ritually appropriates justification based on interior holiness even for one who cannot repent and believe.
Does repentance result in salvation?
That should never been asked if what i wrote was indeed read, for the Scriptural answer is yes, if it signifies faith in the heart in believing on the Lord Jesus, and which implicitly signifies repentance from competing lords or saviors. You cannot believe on the Lord Jesus and knowingly keep other competing lords or saviors, Muhammad, Mary or whatever else. .
And as Jesus is not a amoral Santa Clause, but the holy Lord who gave Himself a ransom for sinners, then implicit in believing is a change of heart that will effect a change in life, though this relates to how much light one has
You left out a lot of 1 Peter to comment on just one verse. The entire chapter 1 proves the point.
We are washed clean of our sins by the Grace of God in Christ’s Blood. We must acknowledge we are sinners in need of God’s Grace. That is the repentance Paul speaks of:
2 Corinthians 7:10 KJV
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
I can gauge my walk but not yours...But I don't think so, so much...Conforming to the Torah requires a lot of work of the flesh...Being led of the Spirit is a whole 'nother ball game...
Sure, which is why one needs something to meter with... to measure by... How does one know he is being obedient to his master? We are all bought with a price - how do we serve, and how do we know we are doing a proper job?
Jesus tells me, constantly...Again, I have the law written in my heart...He reminds me when I go crashing off the path...
There is no more Jew or Greek... No male or female ... No slave and master...
For those in Christ, that's true...
Doesn't it seem odd that the Torah, revealed from the beginning of Creation, should suddenly be set aside and then brought back again? Does the Master desire a lawless bride? Surely not! His bride will honor Him in obedience, and keep the laws of His Father's House, even as He does Himself! A wife obeys her husband because she loves Him.
God's wife in the Old Testament left him...Jesus' bride in the New Testament is the church...In the Old Testament, the wife could not keep the laws of the Father's house...Jesus became the Sacrifice because he knew they(Jews) and we (Gentiles) couldn't keep the laws...He traded his life for our inability to keep the laws...
It's not that we are lawless, it's that we fail at it so much...Jesus took care of that problem...
And the passage we are looking at (Mat 5:17...) directly speaks against your statement - Yeshua plainly says that every Jot and tittle is in place until heaven and earth pass away, and all is fulfilled. Are heaven and earth still here? YES. Is all fulfilled? NO.
You're right, I misspoke...I don't know what I was thinking...
Jesus did fulfill the law...But looking at the rest of those verses, if my righteousness (under the law) doesn't exceed that of the scribes and pharisees, I will never see the Kingdom...And in that case, I'm a lost cause...I can give up now because it's way too late...
But praise God...
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
"I don't have to keep the Law cuz my Jesus did it for me!" No offense, brother, but that ain't gonna cut it. The Master said to do and teach the Torah. Whether you are slave, disciple, or wife, obedience is the calling. He kept the law in order to be eligible to take our hit - but that doesn't mean we don't have to try.
There's all kinds of instruction all over the NT to walk uprightly and do those/or not those things contained in the law...I don't get where you think Christians feel they can act as tho they never had a personal experience with Jesus Christ and no change in their spirit has taken place...
Let me ask this...When you violate any aspect of the Torah, and everyone does, where do you go for the required atonement???
Are you saying by keeping them we understand them better? Or is it that knowing them as the Hebrews know them the important element?
Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
I now have the substance. I don't need the shadow.
Romans 14:5-8 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.
Hebrews 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.
If I want to live closely conformed to Jesus, THIS is what I'm after....
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Otherwise, I just descend into legalism.
We can’t keep all the feast days properly because there is no more Temple at which to offer the appropriate sacrifices, nor is there a priesthood to offer them.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to correctly keep the feast days. What you are advocating isn’t even keeping the feast days properly, but just observing the shadow of the shadow.
Your comment once again.>>>>Paul actually only uses the term "my gospel" thrice, (Rm. 2:16; 16:25; 2Tim. 2:8) but perhaps that counts as "several," yet he also thrice refers to it as "our gospel," (2Cor. 4:3; 1Ths. 1:5; 2Ths. 2:14)<<
According to Strong, Thayer, NASEC, and Englishman’s the Greek words used in ALL those texts mean the same thing. http://biblesuite.com/greek/1473.htm
Not they do not, for as shown , as the word used is not G1473, but G3450 (my) and G2257 (our), respectively. And what you are doing is using the root (G1473) for G2257 to define what a word precisely means, which is invalid, and would enable ignoring the distinctions made hundreds of times btwn the singular and plural.
This is simply untenable, and appears to be an example of result of the "the root fallacy," in which a person assumes that the meaning of a word must be bound to the meaning of its etymological root. More here .
Great info. Overlay the above with the epistle of Hebrews and it matches.
As a “condition for salvation”? Where did you get that “condition for salvation” phrase from? Paul didn’t preach a “condition for salvation”.
\ Paul taught that faith and righteousness precede doing anything.
Romans 4:1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." 9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Repentance is the result of the faith of Christ in us given through Grace of God. No one can say “I repented therefore I am saved”.
Paul when asked by the jailor “what must I do to be saved” said simply “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved – and your house”. If doing something is a “condition for salvation” then grace is no longer grace”.
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
I did nothing other than show what Strong, Thayer, NASEC, and Englishman’s have on that site.
>>This is simply untenable, and appears to be an example of result of the "the root fallacy," in which a person assumes that the meaning of a word<<
I am not the “a person”. If you have disagreement then you need to take that up with either Strong, Thayer, NASEC, and Englishman or the site that posts their work as I simply showed what they showed as the meaning of the words. They are the experts, not I.
1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Again it appears you are not reading carefully what i said, as i made a distinction btwn sermons in Acts versus teaching to Christians, which is what your examples consist of. Though i do not see Paul as being the author of Hebrews (lacks his passion, etc.) but which is a key book.
Did they preach something different than what they wrote? Was there two different gospels?
But you did about 51 Biblical Proofs Of A Pauline Papacy And Ephesian Primacy(!)
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