Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation

Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.

Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,

"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).

"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).

"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).

"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).

"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).

"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).

Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.

And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.

Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]

I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.

The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.

The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).

It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour

Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:

"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).

Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."

This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.

The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.

I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!

[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.

>> “Opinion. Still dead. No Scripture.” <<

Here is a scripture that I know that you posted or referenced, and it does give the basics

Galatians 3:

[26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There are precursors to this in the OT, but I have too much work to do to chase them out presently.

But make no mistake, we all agree Catholicism is a false man-made religion and does not save anyone.

we all agree on that....O.K., I guess, the couple of billion of Catholics on Earth and the tens of billions who have lived over the years might challenge you....but don't worry, we aren't offended by your inane ramblings...the Catholic church has been attacked by outsiders for 2,013 years and has fared very well.

AMEN!!! Be ready, be faithful, be watching!

John 14:1-6. Jesus tells the faithful all that is important.

Focus on the Upper Room Discourse. Those who truly trust and obey Jesus Christ fear not the Olivet Discourse.

did you actually READ the post?

Well, of course I did. And the scripture selection too.

And do you agree that Christ coming IN THE AIR for a group of people is DIFFERENT than Christ RETURNING to this earth for group of people?

It would seem to be so.

Now, IF you believe this, then there are TWO times Christ will approach this earth. ONE time His feet do not touch the earth, He stays IN THE AIR above earth. And ONE time His feet DO touch the earth. Exactly where He LEFT the earth in Acts.

Sorry, I am not welded to the whole second-coming scenario. I think the only one that is indicative is the final one. That is when He is back. How many times He comes 'in the air' is up for grabs...

And btw, He already ascended and came back once at the resurrection, before the advertised Ascension, so your 'second coming' would actually be the third.

If you could just sit back and listen you yourself like we do. You post a passage that you claim tells us that only Christians and those who follow the torah will know when Christ returns.

No, I didn't say that.

You also told us that there is no rapture but that all will be taken up at the final return of Christ.

I didn't say that either.

Yet we all have been told when that final return will be and even those who don’t follow torah or even believe in Jesus will know when Christ’s final return is. It’s exactly 3 ½ years to the day after the anti Christ set’s himself up in the temple. People who deny the truth of the rapture have some serious problems with what scripture says let alone the torah.

I never denied the rapture. I am a staunch defender thereof. What I denied is pre-trib.

You may be convicted but it’s obvious that all of scripture has clearly not yet been revealed to you.

Why is that? Because I don't see what you do? Careful now... With history as our guide, the truth usually comes calling from folks that are outside of the norm. Just sayin. 'Few will find it'.

Those who haven’t been able to understand the difference between God dealing strictly with Israel, this church age or age of grace, and the time when He will deal specifically with Israel again will never understand. There is no sense in trying until that understanding is clear.

And yet you claim there is no longer a difference between Greek and Jew - And that the wall of separation is removed. yet somehow, Israel (to whom all the covenants belong) must bear the wrath of YHWH, while all the Christians go skipping off to heaven, not only avoiding any martyrdom in the tribulation, but hidden also from the wrath...

DEM JOOOOOS! They deserve it, eh? You seem to forget that the OT has YHWH hiding Israel in the folds of his robe while his wrath is poured out...

>> “No, I didn’t say that.” <<

.
Been there, done that!

When they can’t refute what you did say, they simply prop up something in its place that is created to be defeated.

Be content in your victory; lurkers are not stupid.

[roamer_1:] But I would assert, despite the interpretation some would impose upon Paul, that we are still bound to the law - not by curses, but by a love of YHWH and a desire to keep the ways of His House. An adopted child takes on the rules of his new father, and the rules of the father remain unchanged.

Except for the decision at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15....

No doubt you and I have a different view of the 'Jerusalem Council'. First, their verdict - that a grown man does not need to be circumcised in order to be saved - Is not against Torah. It IS against the Jewish Tradition. Secondly, they gave instruction for new converts - That instruction is half of the Noachide law. The other half is re-enumerated in Moses... And no doubt they would be hearing Moses, in order to continue learning.

I see nothing in the Jerusalem Council that can be used to claim the religious liberties that have been levered from it. The Protestant Tradition for this comes right out of Rome. An Hebrew perspective is more accurate, IMHO.

Compare Luke 1:70 and Acts 3:21, 24 WITH Rom. 16:25, Ephesians 3:9 and Col. 1:25. Are they speaking of the same things? Or are they different?

I don't see them as mutually exclusive - I think you see something novel being revealed... I do not. The Spirit of prophecy IS the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah. That no one understood the prophets is evident (to include the prophets themselves) - But the plan is there, lest the Messiah could not be proven in the Tanakh.

Did God promise Israel actual land on this earth, to be theirs forever, with Messiah ruling? Or did God promise Israel a heavenly position with Him? Were they (Israel) going to be actual flesh and bone people living in that land and did He offer Gentiles the same covenant promise?

That is one of the most vile, disgusting things anyone has ever posted to me, Cynical Bear, or WVKayaker, roamer. We are attempting to work WITH you, NOT against you here. Please stop with the “dem Joos” comments. You are better than that.

Both, neither - Again, I do not believe they are mutually exclusive - Thy Kingdom Come. Jerusalem will come down.

It is indeed vile - and designed to shock folks out of the antisemitism of Rome, so very ingrained that it cannot even be detected without such a shock. Please do not continue to believe that the Jews will have to endure the wrath of YHWH, and will not participate in the bride (she is theirs by right, the gentiles are adopted). I think y'all are better than that. : )

And I offend myself in that too - I am more aware than I was, but it still comes easy to me too.

The two sticks of Ezekiel are made one before the end, not after.

Then why would God bother to separate Abram from the rest of the heathen world, change his name to Abraham and give to him His covenant promise, for a specific people that God formed to be His nation of priests, in a specific land? That doesn’t make any sense. The Abrahamic Covenant was established by God to a specific nation: Israel. Not the whole world. Meanwhile, what were the Gentile nations promised? Anything? The same thing Israel was promised? Both? Neither?

God made a difference between Abraham and the Gentiles when He gave Abraham a wall of partition between him and the Gentiles. Circumcision. When Abraham was 99 years old. That was God’s sign that they were to be a separate people from the Gentiles. With a separate land, separate duties, and a covenant promise with him that God would dwell with them in that land, on this earth one day.

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