Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation

Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.

Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,

"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).

"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).

"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).

"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).

"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).

"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).

Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.

And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.

Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]

I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.

The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.

The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).

It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour

Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:

"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).

Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."

This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.

The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.

I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!

[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.

>>Acts 2 is where the event is described:<<

Once again you either don’t comprehend what was written either by WVKayaker or what is written in scripture. Let’s first look at what WVKayaker posted.

>>>“ The next book, most commonly referred to as the Acts of the Apostles, records the beginnings of his church. It includes the upper room testament of the indwelling spirit of God. It includes Peter's vision on a rooftop where he is clearly told that those foods were no longer forbidden.”<<<

Notice I have highlighted includes. What includes? The book of Acts includes. Not one verse, not one chapter, but the book of Acts includes.

But your response was.

>>That is where a sloppy reading of the word will take one.

First, it should be clear that “upper Room” had to be a mistranslation when it was translated into the Greek.<<

Now where in WVKayaker’s post did he say that it all happened in the upper room? Then you make another error in either reading or comprehension. You claim that “since all of the hundreds of people mentioned would not have been able to squeeze into a bedroom.” Now neither WVKayaker nor scripture say they were still in that upper room when all those people came. Why did you assume that the events in chapter 1 of Acts happened in the exact same place as the events of Acts chapter 2? Scripture doesn’t say that. We can easily surmise that they had moved since chapter two starts out with “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.” There would have been no need for that statement if we were supposed to think it was the same place and the same time frame.

Yet your inclination was to claim error in scripture translation. A rather telling statement on your part. Still you have the audacity to accuse others of “sloppy reading of the word”. Go figure.

Thank you WVKayaker, for your thoughtful and heartfelt reply. Philippines.... Ocean-going kayaking now? Seems a bit of a shame, a kayaker without white water... But maybe that's just the Rockies in me talking... : )

There seems to be a tendency by some to believe that we are under the Law. But, Paul was the writer of most of the New Testament, and there is general agreement that his words were/are inspired through the Holy Spirit.

No, I will have to correct you in this - I doubt anyone here believes we are 'under the law'. No one here, I will venture to say, believes they are justified by anything other than grace. But I would assert, despite the interpretation some would impose upon Paul, that we are still bound to the law - not by curses, but by a love of YHWH and a desire to keep the ways of His House. An adopted child takes on the rules of his new father, and the rules of the father remain unchanged.

And while we are at it, the connotation of 'law' is somewhat harsh - the term 'instructions' is closer to the truth, albeit that 'law' is easier to write and relate, because of it's longstanding use. likewise, the 'Holy Days' of YHWH are better understood as 'rehearsals' in the true sense... Their sanctification seems to primarily be for the purpose of causing folks to show up to 'practice'. There is a purpose for their sanctity, and they perform a particular function. Like everything else, the law must be considered for it's prophetic value - ignore it at your peril.

To defend my points above, as I have elsewhere, I must first and foremost point to the logical fallacy that one can identify the terms sin, wickedness, or iniquity without an inherent inclusion of Torah - All three are defined by action against the Torah. For example, when Yeshua accuses those he never knew, He calls them 'workers of iniquity'... Workers of 'lawlessness'. How can one begin to understand the concept of 'lawlessness' without some admission toward a necessary 'law' that one is without? I believe He is, by definition, accusing them of being without Torah. Likewise, when he accuses a 'wicked generation'... 'Wickedness' is the twisting of the Torah.

And to further the point, and I can not stress this enough, not only does the prophecy explicitly declare that we are certainly heading toward the keeping of Torah by the whole world, but I defy anyone who thinks to interpret the prophets without a solid knowledge of the Torah!

As an instance:

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

(e-Sword:KJV)

One is ignorant of what is being said here, if one does not know that the 'times and seasons' refer with specificity to the Torah - To the Holy Days and Sabbaths, to the Jubilees. Furthermore, the phrase 'No one knows the day or the hour' speaks perfectly to an exact day and an exact hour, which any Jew can surely affirm - So the generic Christian tradition that His coming will be as a 'thief in the night', and that no man knows 'the day or the hour', but we can kinda tell the 'time and the season', a tradition built wholly upon the NT, without consideration of the OT, is completely invalid! And a reasonable examination of the exquisite timing of Yeshua's ministry, and to-the-minute/second fulfillment of the Spring Feasts will be all the confirmation one should need to know the very same will happen with the fall feasts.

But Christians, prideful and stuck in their ways, refuse to give up their (even yet) Roman traditions, and Greek philosophies, and open their eyes to SEE! What should it look like when one truly does 'Come out of her, my people'? Doesn't that mean (like every other time) a return to the Torah, the Holy Days, and in that, the ways of the Early Church?

To wit, my FRiends, the great apostasy, the great falling away that everyone is expecting, may very well have been ongoing for the last two thousand years. Yet again, people will not see. They worship as THEY see fit, or as their church sees fit, listening to the traditions of men in favor of the words of YHWH and His Messiah (which must be, by the nature of an unchanging God, one and the same thing).

So, here we are this morning arguing about how many angels are dancing on a pinhead. Instead, we should be studying the Scriptures and seeking God's face. But, it's easy to be caught up with argument and forget about the prize. The prize is the free gift from God, our eternal salvation and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives to bring us through this life and into the next. God is a spirit and we must worship him in spirit and in truth. The Bible says it, I believe it, and I look forward to eternity.

Oh but I will have to disagree - What is happening here is particularly what must happen. This IS studying scripture, and it IS seeking his face. I do not come forward in animosity toward my fellows and FRiends, But rather, like a watchman on the wall, as the Spirit has lead me. I cannot be quiet, or that which I have been lead to speak will be counted upon my own head, along with the blood of my fellows. And if I am wrongly lead, then I need the concretions I believe to be true ground off of me - Steel sharpens steel.

This is not about judgement, which is way above my pay grade, but rather about knowledge and about truth. What good is grace if one knows not sin? What good is forgiveness unless one knows how to 'go and sin no more?'

The perniciousness of christmas, as an example, is not in it's heathen origins, which have supposedly been 'christianized', but rather, in it's distraction from the truth - YHWH has a Holy Day to celebrate the birth of Yeshua, complete with a formidable tradition and wonderful customs and decorations, whose symbolism and meaning far outstrips the baubles and things of christmas. But being distracted by the participation in christmas means that one will never find the meaning one would find in participation in the true day. The same applies to the Sabbath Day, and every other day appointed and approved by YHWH.

I am convicted, FRiends, with all of my heart, that antichrist finds it's way not in direct opposition, but in mild and holy seeming distraction.

>> Returning in the air is, in the way things are usually understood Biblically, the same as returning to the Earth.<<

Um, no they aren’t. We “meet Him in the air” is different than when He returns to set foot on the mount. At the rapture He comes in the cloud and we “meet Him in the air”.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then seven years later He comes as the conquering King to fight the armies of the world we are with Him.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.