Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
And just who did you think the anti Christ is other than someone indwelt by Satan who signs the peace treaty at the beginning of the senven years is? Satan is alive and well on this earth today. Not waiting for some future date.
There are some things that are presented rather vaguely, and that we cannot hope to understand from the info we have, but it isn’t just the English translations that are the barrier.
The “first resurrection” of Revelation is still the first in the Greek too.
Yes Yeshua was the First Fruits re[presented in the wave offering.
Satan will soon lose his access to the throne room.
That is when he is “cast out” and the Trib begins.
Sure he is here now, but the casting out marks the point where he “has little time.”
I know that we are speaking of the same event, that is why I wanted to prevent any confusion.
I’m heading out for the weekend in a short time.
Not ignoring anybody, will be back monday.
Yeah, and everyone should just take your word for it with no scripture to show where you get that belief from or which can support that contention. Anyone taking your words as truth with no scripture to support them is on treacherous ground.
However, I have no problem with using the same reference as it is used in the texts we have, if that works better in our discussions.
Yes Yeshua was the First Fruits re[presented in the wave offering.
It wasn't just Yeshua. There were others that arose that same evening. These he presented before the throne in Heaven, fulfilling his role as "Cohen Gadol".
Have a great weekend. I have to go for now too.
Have a good one!
And still we have people who flatly state they do not believe in dispensations.
Then use it.
CB is right, although I had noticed it some time ago.
I do not take what the RC's say on their say so without Scripture to back it up. I will not take what you have to say on your say so without Scripture to back it up.
You are losing credibility by your failure to use Scripture.
editor-surveyor wrote:
You’re deviating from sound process, not allowing scripture to define scripture.
Unless you can find another reference that adds to what Paul said, we have to take what he said in the entire chapter as the guide to the meaning of that sentence.
That has always been how sound doctrine is produced.
And yet....
You all claim to be superior to the Catholic Church, but you disagree on every detail - except your agreement that the Church is wrong.
Odd. Some of you celebrate Easter - some call it pagan. Some of you worship on Sunday, others call that pagan.
Maybe you can agree that you disagree?
And what is it that is different now, as opposed to 'under the law'? The only difference was that the blood of bulls and goats was insufficient, and their covering only temporary until the 'better sacrifice' came along.
[roamer_1:] Who has EVER been saved by anything but 'faith by grace'?
You misquote what smvoice said. She didn’t say “faith”. We are told that those of the Old Testament were justified by their faith but were still under the law. There was no grace but only adherence to the law. After Christ’s death and resurrection that changed and we are no longer under the law but are under the grace of God.
I have not misquoted anyone. I simply asked a question. Because I know that no one was ever justified by works. That is not what the law is *for*. It has ALWAYS been about faith, and it has ALWAYS been a matter of GRACE.
[roamer_1:] YHWH speaks of many - and their faith has always been counted as righteousness. Yeshua has been there all the way along. Do you think the patriarchs, judges, prophets, and others have not received the very same grace?
Why do you change from faith to grace in that paragraph? No, they didn’t “receive the very same grace”, they had faith but not the grace since they had to abide by the law.
Hate to be the one to tell you, but we have to abide by the law too. And I didn't change between 'faith counted as righteousness' and grace. They are the same thing.
That statement is completely against Scripture. It is a recitation from Catholic doctrine and catechism, and flies completely against what we know is true in God's word. You cannot come to your conclusion when you read God's word. It is so clear that even a child can understand. But, apparently to the Roman Catholic mind they are all still walking around in the desert!
Hate to be the one to tell you, both the Roman Catholic Church will lead you straight to hell. With idols and useless ceremony, and lighting candles which you must buy, the Catholic tries to assuage the guilt which cannot be overcome. Confessing to a box, and praying to dead people will not give you salvation. Tithing and church attendance only fills their coffers, and nothing is laid up in heaven. Jesus is the Word that cleanses every sin.
John 1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. ...
Romans 8:... 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
We don’t differ on salvation which is the essential doctrine of the faith.
We can disagree on other doctrine not pertaining to salvation all we like and it is good to discuss and talk about it.
But make no mistake, we all agree Catholicism is a false man-made religion and does not save anyone.
We are not perfect and don’t have a perfect understanding of everything in this life, but we do have a perfect Lord and a perfect salvation.
We all agree on that!
But we don't disagree on every detail.
However it is an interesting criticism from a Catholic considering there's precious little that THEY agree on.
So tell me, is it true that there is no salvation outside the Catholic church or not?
A simple yes or no question.
Well...
“No one can depart from the teaching of Catholic truth without loss of faith and salvation.”
~ Pope Pius XII
“He who is separated from the body of the Catholic Church, however laudable his conduct may otherwise seem, will never enjoy eternal life, and the anger of God remains on him by reason of the crime of which he is guilty in living separated from Christ.”
~ St. Augustine & the Council of Cirta (412 AD)
These guys are either INFALLIBLE or merely shooting off their mouths.
Mary is still dead.
But... I thought they said she was walking down the street with blood for tears? Or, maybe it was a statue came to life for a minute to lead a parade...
Nope, she's dead!
... Therefore, Satan, in his efforts to deceive the very elect in these last days, will use his demons to impersonate our departed loved ones in the form of familiar spirits: boyfriends and girlfriends, grandfathers and grandmothers, uncles and aunts, brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers. So why not a masterpiece of deception--a demon impersonating the mother of Jesus Christ!!! - Is the Virgin Mary Dead or Alive?
Well hello narses! Still haven’t caught on about that dragging from thread to thread stuff yet have you. That one track mind thinking may get wearisome to some but I just see it as a sign that we should just understand that God gifts each of us in different ways. Bless your heart for trying to contribute but this thread is about the tribulation and it’s related subjects so perhaps it would be best if you find something your familiar with. Highjacking each thread you see me on isn’t something that contributes but simply shows a lack of respect for other posters and the rules. Maybe you could find somewhere to post one of your pretty pictures to enlighten and teach deep theological insights.
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