Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
Posted on 08/27/2013 11:53:37 AM PDT by NYer
Megachurch. Two young ladies. Both had left the Catholic Church. Both were now attending “megachurches.” We had a good chat together. I wanted to understand their reasons for why they left the Catholic Church for a megachurch.
Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
I was at the bank and somehow I got into a spiritual conversation with two Hispanic executives that worked there.
When I asked why they exchanged the Catholic Church for the megachurch, they gave me a number of reasons:
Although these two ladies didn’t articulate it explicitly to me, I could tell that they were very proud of their new churches. I could also discern in them a surprise that I am so “spiritual” and yet I am very excited about being Catholic. They assumed the “with it” people were leaving Catholicism for the bigger and better and deal.
I asked them what they miss about being Catholic. They replied with two answers:
I asked both about the Eucharist: “Don’t you miss the Eucharist?”
This question didn’t phase them one bit. “Oh we still have communion. They pass out little crackers and cups of juice. I like this better because I thought drinking from one big cup is icky. Spreads germs.”
“But in the Catholic Church,” I replied, “we believe that the Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus?”
I may as well have said, “Don’t you know that there are Martians in my back pocket.” She was unaware that the Catholic Church taught this. No idea.
This, my brothers and sisters, is the crux of the problem. These girls were raised as Catholics, but did not know about the Eucharist. They did not know that the Eucharist is God. They did not understand the Holy Eucharist is the center of the Catholic tradition.
So when they compare our ho-hum Catholic music and pedestrian sermons to snazzy well produced musical productions and highly polished bulleted sermons from handsome professional speakers…where are they going to go?
If they had believed that the Holy Eucharist is truly the Lord Jesus Christ, then they would have stayed. This is the task of the New Evangelization if there is going to be one. Can we communicate the mystery of Eucharist. If we fail in that, everyone is leaving the building.
Godspeed,
Taylor
PS: I don’t mean to suggest that having the Holy Eucharist is an excuse for bad music, bad vestments, bad architecture, and bad sermons. The Eucharist is like a precious diamond. It deserves a platinum setting…not a plastic setting. We can’t say, “Well, we have the Eucharist – so you’re forced to stay and have a miserable experience every Sunday.” We can’t keep the sacraments hostage to mediocracy.
PPS: With 1 billion strong, the Catholic Church is the real megachurch!
Pope Francis at Rio de Janeiro
3 million people
Yes, Jesus used “sarx” in John 6 exactly to emphasize that he was talking about flesh=meat. Just like we would talk about a lamb chop.
He did not want anyone to think he was talking metaphorically.
We must eat his flesh.
The reality is that they were taught this, but as is abundantly evidenced weekly, receiving it does not result in the manifest change correspondent to the claims made for it.
And most who leave Catholicism for evangelical churches do so due to the spiritual deficiency of Rome, and what she effectually teaches and fosters is liberalism, in contrast to the evangelical churches so-called "conservative" Rome treats as her enemy, nor her own liberal members whom she counts and treats as such in life and in death. For the preeminence of Rome is the real priority.
Notwithstanding the idea that you are the judge of the spiritual development of others, consider that even the Bible says that those who receive the Sacrament unworthily eat and drink damnation upon themselves.
In other words, it is not a magic elixir, as you seem to think it is. Its effectiveness depends on the spiritual state of the recipient.
We just went thru this again here, PTDS in heaven and the exaltation of the Mary of Catholicism abound with assumptions, including her Assumption, which Romanism in her presumption teaches. And the reason we do not accept theses teaching is because they think of Mary above (and often contrary to) what is written, (cf. 1Cor. 4:6), including, as said, being presented sometimes as more compassionate than Christ, and more accessible, so that one can expect to receive answer to prayer from her more readily than praying directly to Christ, with whom Mary suffered all the consequences of sin, and that we are saved through the merits of Mary, and no grace is given without her intercession, and there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her , and she is elevated to a certain equality with the Heavenly Father. Etc. etc. (Sources .)
The reality is that they were taught this, but as is abundantly evidenced weekly, receiving it does not manifestly result in the effects correspondent to the claims made for it.
And most who leave Catholicism for evangelical churches do so due to the spiritual deficiency of Rome, and what she most effectually teaches and fosters is liberalism, in overall contrast to the evangelical churches so-called "conservative" Rome treats as her enemy, nor her own liberal members whom she counts and treats as such in life and in death. For the preeminence of Rome is the real priority.
Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” Matthew 26:26is the same Greek word "soma" used in this passage from the very next chapter of Matthew about the burial of the body of Jesus
When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. And Joseph took the body, and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn in the rock; and he rolled a great stone to the door of the tomb, and departed. Matthew 27:57-60(I noticed that you skipped over that latter Bible passage for some reason in your list of "soma" texts in your post #712.)
Does your church have some schedule of services? What hours, and what days? Some rule on whether the Lord's Day will be observed on Saturday (the Biblical Sabbath) or on Sunday (the day of the Lord's resurrection?)
Some procedure for choosing pastors, some regulations? (Women, or no women? Some age qualification? Some doctrinal qualification?)
Some regulation on who can participate, and when? Do you disfellowship, shun or exclude unrepentant public sinners? Do you have a way to reconcile them if they repent and want to come back?
A ruling on whether you'd baptize somebody as an infant? A 4 year old? An 11 year old? Or just adults? Who decides?)
Do you observe the Lord's Supper? Do you have regulations on who can partake? Infants? Toddlers? Unbaptized people, or only baptized?
Is there a church building, and a plot of land it sits on? Who owns that? The pastor as his personal property? An incorporated religious nonprofit? Is there a board of directors of some kind? Trustees? Elders? Deacons? Are there papers of incorporation?
I'm asking all these things, not because I'm preparing a dossier on "Elsie and Her Church", but because these are a few of the sorts of matters covered by Canon Law.
I’ve fallen short of every kind of law: human law, natural law, and divine law; probably city, county, state and federal, too, if you and Eric Holder want to go over it with a fine-tooth comb!
ARE YOU KIDDING ME???
I feel particularly distressed by the local Planned Parenthood. They are literally one block from my house, on the same street. I go past there, on foot or by car, almost every day of my life. I’ve been praying, but I think I should also be fasting.
Tagline for you.
Its' Rome that teaches it's some kind of magic elixir. Eat and you're saved....
And yet here we have yet ANOTHER condition to be met in order to be saved.
I didn’t investigate every use of the word. That’s all.
No. Your conception of "Rome" is not reality.
Galatians 3:5-7 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
Salvation is by faith, believing God. Jesus said so Himself.
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Problem is, the Catholic church developed its doctrine and then cherry picked verses to support it, doctrine which contradicts a whole body of teaching.
God said not to eat the blood. It is one of the few commands that the Council of Jerusalem reiterated to the early church.
Don't eat blood. The life is in the blood.
Genesis 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life , that is, its blood.
Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood.”
Leviticus 7:26-27 Moreover, you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwelling places. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.”
Leviticus 17:10-14 “If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.
“Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.
Leviticus 19:26 “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.
Deuteronomy 12:16 Only you shall not eat the blood ; you shall pour it out on the earth like water.
Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life , and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.
Deuteronomy 15:23 Only you shall not eat its blood; you shall pour it out on the ground like water.
Acts 15:12-29 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’
Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter:
“The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
No exceptions were made.
The Catholic church is teaching things in direct violation of Scripture. Even Jesus Himself said that the words He spoke were spirit and life, that the flesh counts for NOTHING.
This is not true. "Rome" does not teach this. Not even close.
I like you, metmom, so I hope you won't mind if I say you'd do better to fact-check --- and do it before you put falsehoods about other people's religious beliefs in print.
Catechism (Link) one-stop shopping here, searchable by keyword. It's not like the doctrines are inaccessible, or are something you can just take a wild stab at.
Good advice for me too, I know, I know...
Tagline for you.
Well, it was right there big and bold on that same web page at the same link you provided for NYer in post #712
| ===> | http://biblesuite.com/greek/4983.htm. |
I do now!
(The word - council - is used only in ADDED subject headings; NOT in the text of the actual BIBLE.
Now then; what were we discussing; the actual LETTER sent to the Gentiles, or OTHER things that certain folks want to ADD to it?
And, the answer is, after ALL of this thinking and contemplation???
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