Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
I don't know what Protestant sources the different Protestant denominations use, but I like this one.
Of course it is, and I showed it to you many times. Start a thread dedicated to justification doctrines and I’ll show it again. This one is about veneration of saints.
The Bible quote explains the Catholic doctrine that works of law are not salvific, and it says nothing about the salvific nature of any sacrament. Besides, it is off-topic. See my previous post and consider yourself invited.
Of course it would be; this is why veneration of saints is practically speaking necessary for salvation, for when you model your life after a saint your fortitude increases and you are better able to resists lower passions that lead to sin.
But He Who is sent teaches baptism and says it saves. Mark 16:16.
ANd that is exactly why you should rightly divide the Scriptures as God instructs. But who am I to tell you this over & over & etc...
I think, Mark 16:16 is as unambiguous as John 6:28-29, so I am fine with the Holy Scripture without your playing focus pocus with it.
Well, we're in agreement there. The Bible does NOT say anything about any sacraments being salvific.
You're getting there. Keep going and before long you'll find true faith and become a Protestant like us.
:)
Hebrews 12:1-2 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Psalm 119:11 I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.
Even if we sin ..... Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
-— Paging the Holy Spirit... -—
I did. You did. Yet we disagree. Now what?
That particular quote doesn’t speak about the sacraments. Many passages of the Bible speak of the salvific nature of the sacraments. See Mark 16:16, John 6:41-71, John 20:23. We can discuss them in detail with someone capable of understanding arguments, and on a thread dedicated to that topic. Buh-bye.
Well, we can pick one topic and see what Scripture has to say about it.......
If I were Catholic; I'd say, "That proves that YOU are wrong."
I agree!
He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Note that it does NOT say:
...but he who has NOT BEEN BAPTIZED shall be condemned.
Sorry, but Jesus was asked a DIRECT question; and He delivered the answer.
Add stuff to it at your peril.
Right. That is the Catholic teaching as well. We do not know if an unbaptized person is condemned.
Uh... aren't sacraments WORKS of 'law' of the RCC?
I'm glad I merely understand Scripture instead of ARGUMENTS.
WHAT?
Then WHY did you try to use Mark 16:16 to make your point?
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