Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
Will you be giving a royalty to Free Republic for the free advertising they are giving you?
“In 169 I explain in detail about superior faculties of the saints.”
I checked your post 169 and I didn’t see how you proved the “superior faculties” of the saints in the sense of them being omnipresent and omniscient, which are the attributes we lack and the attributes they need to perform their office. You didn’t even explain “in detail,” since all you did was try to demonstrate that the spirit in heaven had some kind of faculty, and that this faculty was higher than a human being’s on Earth. But how much higher, and what this higher entails, you were utterly silent.
I think perhaps you use words like “literally” and “in detail” without knowing what they mean. In that other post which SMH covered for me, you said that the “image was literal,” even though the words redemption, holes, and stuffing stuff into those holes, wasn’t “literally” anywhere in the verse, and so was your own clumsy invention. In the great words of Inigo Montoya, “I don’t think that word means what you think it means.”
You wrote in that post 169: “This shows that the saint is like an angel. But what is an angel? - A messenger of God. Saints therefore can and do fulfill requests from God and interact with us like angels do.”
Now if a Saint is to not only hear the prayer of the individual, but also be able to read his mind (if his prayer is there) as well as understand his history, the true condition of his heart, and the particular language he speaks, the saint then must be able to comprehend all of these things millions of times at the same exact time, in order to accommodate all the Catholics the world over praying to him. This would mean that the attributes you must prove that angels and men have (because you pray to angels too) are those of omnipresence and omniscience, capable of being with the believer, and every believer, and yet also in heaven for which to intercede on their behalf. Unless you say that the Saint isn’t actually with the believer, but is in heaven receiving the information from the omnipotent God who relays the information from the man, back to another man, so that man can relay it back to Himself. Though the RCC actually teaches that the Saint is indeed present with every believer, so that latter option is out.
So the obvious retort is that even the Angels whom you pray to are not omnipresent or omniscient, but instead have to travel from one location to another by the command of God, and can be hindered by other spiritual powers. Such is the case when Gabriel was sent by God to visit Daniel, he was sent 3 weeks prior, but had been hindered by the principle power over Persia, a Demon, which kept him from fulfilling his duty as he was commanded for a time (Dan 10:11-13). Now if Gabriel is already present with the believer for to hear the prayer, then why was he held back for 3 weeks by the power of another angel? Shouldn’t he be able to be present both with the demon, as well as Gabriel, at the same exact time?
Also, if all these spiritual beings have the attributes of omnipresence and omniscience, why do we not conclude that they are also gods, since they possess the divine attributes that God only is ever described as having?
lol! I just couldn’t let that one stand there any longer :) Sometimes the need to respond overtakes my need to be patient and well...;) Regards!, smvoice
And in Scripture, it is not simply treated as “a source of reflection and inspiration,” but as the supreme standard for obedience and testing truth claims.
Good grief. Can’t you read a plain text without telling me stories about it in capital letters? I stick with what St. Paul wrote.
So THIS is where ol' Joey got THAT idea from!!
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.
18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.
22For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.
24This is aeternal lives—to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
25aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
For the constituent elements of the veneration of saints enumerated in 364 and amplified with scripture quotes several times prior on the thread, I do. I admitted in the beginning that direct prayer to a saint in heaven is not found in the scripture, and explained why.
If you want to know something about Catholicism, ask a Catholic.
That Mary is venerated in Islam, she is venerated as the blessed mother of Jesus, and not of Mohammed.
No, annalex, no I can’t. I was beginning to believe you COULDN’T read, so unthinking were your responses. I thought I needed to make the letters really BIG so you could see them. Now that I see you can read, it’s even worse. Ears that can’t hear, and eyes that can’t see, you know.
Complain to St. Paul. He can hear you well.
Publicity doesn't hurt, but I don't see any advertising here, and I still post under a screen name. I am extremely grateful to the religion forum at FR for the excellent discussion club that it is.
Well, I did speak of angelic attributes that, for lack of other clarification we have to assume, is ability to communicate between God and men. How precisely it is done I don't know, just like I don't know how precisely thousands people were fed on five breads and two fish; but I know the miracle of the multiplication of loaves happened, that the miracle of the Eucharist happens daily today, and so I have no difficulty believing that saints hear us when we speak to them.
they are also gods
They are not Our Savior, so no. To a pagan mind, maybe.
I don't need to complain to St. Paul about your false interpretation of his words. That's why I posted TO you. If you read my post, you would have seen that St. Paul was also quoted in the book of Hebrews. This as well as hundreds of other verses prove that what you say Paul said and what he DID say and mean is different. Rather than take parts of verses and piece them together with Catholic-invented dogmas like a big jigsaw puzzle, why not do what sincere Christians do and look at all of Scripture to know what teaching God is speaking through them. Of course, it would not be possible to comprehend the spiritual teaching unless one has the Holy Spirit within to illuminate the truth. This just may be the cause of so many missteps and perversions of the gospel Catholicism and other religions have made and continue to make.
Not much you didn’t. Praying for one another does not include those who have passed from this life. No where in scripture is that sanctioned or taught. Rather it’s frowned upon rather emphatically. Truth is there is a lack of scriptural support for most of Catholicism.
So that wasn't you excitedly talking up your book on the subject of this thread (an excerpt even)? Can we believe that when this book is complete, you won't be using Free Republic to announce it and drum up sales - kinda like the "blog pimps" do?
If you want to know something about PROTESTantism, ask a Catholic; too!
It's all this ASSumin' that has gotten the RCC into the mess it is in today.
Dead men talking to GOD - ridiculous!
SURE you do...
It's only kinky the FIRST time you try it.
We don’t ask dead people to talk to God for us, that violates the whole concept of Christianity.
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